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Post by Dûncariel is Dead. on May 25, 2005 19:59:05 GMT -5
All right, I just have to say something, then I'll leave, 'cause I get enough of arguments at home.
All right. This is the one statement in the world that I really have a problem with. So, I leave you with a scenario. A man walks into his neighbor's house, pulls out a gun, shoots his neighbor, and walks out. Three days later, the same man is brought into the county jail. During interrogation, he is asked "Did you kill this man?" His answere is yes. The man believes that since his neighbor is a registered sex offender, he had the right to kill him, for the safety of the public.
Using your argument, Faust, what would you say to this man? Since he believes that murder is necessary in this case, and that it is not wrong, who would you be to refute him? This man's point of view is that murder is right, when used in the right way. Is this the truth?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 20:58:42 GMT -5
Ah, but it is your point of view that murder is wrong. Who, then, is really right? Technically that law claims to be right. Are the judicial and federal laws the truth? If you are both looking at this scenerio from your point of view, no one holds the answer to the truth, because neither knows the truth.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 25, 2005 21:05:04 GMT -5
Thank you Silver thats what I was pretty much going to say. Sorry for not adding anything to this but you said what I was going to, you just got here first.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 21:07:08 GMT -5
'Tis all good.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 25, 2005 21:43:55 GMT -5
I think most people here have the same (or at least seem to agree with) view on truth, with the exception of maybe Silver and myself. Maybe its because we have a different way of seeing the world or maybe its because the religion we have is different and isn't as traditional as everyone's here.
And that wasn't for getting people upset or a bashing of anyone.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 21:56:03 GMT -5
I'm sorry...what is your religion? Isn't "religion" just superstition according to a point of view that says nothing matter? 'S'all good?' If you could explain...
Also, what if the man who murders his neighbor had no excuse. He murdered because he likes it, or because it seemed like something exciting. In that case, was he wrong, or is that just my poin of view?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 22:04:04 GMT -5
I'm catholic. This is my religion though. My spirituality is a different thing entirely.
I believe Faust is the same- a confirmed Catholic.
Though the other day my dad said something about confirmation that made me crack up. My brother is making his this year and it has been really rough because the church ppl running it are all very stupid and being totally annoying. So we were sitting around the dinner table and my dad says "After you make your confirmation, you can go and do whatever you want as far as religion goes."
Me: So you mean I could be anything I want?
Dad: yeah, I don't care.
Brother: Isn't confirmation supposed to confirm your faith in catholicism?
Dad: (thinks about this) Maybe...
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 22:06:09 GMT -5
That's wrong, isn't it? Don't you feel how that can't be right...how that kind of religion doesn't make one bit of difference? I can't separate my religion from my spirituality. They are the same thing. That's so...I'm sorry...that's so cheap and meaningless... I'm so sorry for you...really...
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 22:10:34 GMT -5
Religion is something I've been born into. It was not my choice. Spirituality may be similar to my religion, but it is what I chose, not what I've been forced into becoming.
You're right, they could be exactly the same. Some people do not believe exactly as their religion tells them to. For one example (not to get into a discussion about this), Catholics are taught that homosexuality is wrong, I believe otherwise because I have known many over my life time. Most of them have been wonderful people. Catholics are also taught that animals don't have souls. I don't agree with this either for my own reasons.
Don't bother feeling sorry, I don't ask for pity, and I don't need it.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 22:13:44 GMT -5
I hope you don't think I'm out of line...but...who says you can't change your religion? Religion doesn't mean a thing if it's not in line with your beliefs...your spirituality... I was born into a family where Christianity (a faith, spirituality, not a series of customs) is THE FOCUS of my parents' life. But I wasn't born into that religion. I've thought it through. I've searched my heart. And I have chosen my path. I have a choice, and so do you. Why do you put yourself in a cage?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 22:19:39 GMT -5
I don't know if you can understand the complexity of this or not, but it's more of a custom. I come from a long line of Irish, Scottish, and Puerto Rican descendants who have all been Catholic. To change my religion is almost like going against my family tree. I do agree with some of the things in catholicism, just not everything. It's more the people of the religion that upsets me, not the religion itself. I AM Catholic, just an unorthodox one. Just because I'm human doesn't mean I have to follow what everyone else does. On the contrary, I don't feel like I'm in a cage- not at all. It's hard to explain how I feel. I'm free, and thats the way I enjoy it.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 25, 2005 22:21:11 GMT -5
Maybe I should have said beleifs, sorry for the confusion.
I also disagree with the homosexuality being wrong issue as well as alot of other ones that I won't say. I believe that many things can be good when most Christians condem it.
She isn't putting herself in a cage! She's freeing herself from one! Before you say stuff like that you should open yourself to other's beleifs, veiws, and religions. Personally I think that was kinda uncalled for.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 22:23:19 GMT -5
Separate post for separate thoughts:
"Catholics are taught that homosexuality is wrong, I believe otherwise because I have known many over my life time. Most of them have been wonderful people."
Ok. First of all, I respect your opinion, such as it is. Second, I really don't want to go off into this subject, but let's use it to help the current discussion. You just said "wrong". Then, you say homosexuality is "not" wrong. As in...it's "right"? I thought there was no right or wrong. Don't get confusing on me, now!!!!! ; ) Also, you base this on the fact that you have found them to be "wonderful people". So you're telling me they're good. Is that a basis for determining what is "right" and "wrong"? You're saying that truth rests on whether, in YOUR OPINION, a person is a "good" person? What is the standard for "good"? Is that relative?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 22:29:02 GMT -5
Christians often condemn homosexuals. How can they be so sure it is wrong? I definitely don't condemn them, that's not up to me. I don't pity them, I don't fear them, nothing of the sort, yet catholics and christians can be very very nasty to them. My POV is different from theirs' and yes, I do believe I am right, but I don't claim it as being truth. I am not God, I cannot claim turth, nor can anyone else who is human.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 22:33:16 GMT -5
I'm really sorry...didn't mean to offend, Fausty. But it does seem rather narrow...you assume that all "true" Catholics are alike when you call yourself "unorthodox". Unless you're going to the root meaning, in which case I suppose you're correct. In the common meaning of our day, that just means different. And there are plenty of different ideas in Christianity. Some are right, some are wrong, and some are neither.
"Just because I'm human doesn't mean I have to follow what everyone else does. On the contrary, I don't feel like I'm in a cage- not at all. It's hard to explain how I feel. I'm free, and thats the way I enjoy it."
Is truth how you feel, then? I thought there was no truth. What you feel may work for you, but why try to convince me? In my reality, you're boxing yourself into a cage. That's how I FEEL about it, but at least I have a basis for how I feel. Logic. Moral absolutes. What is your basis? Do you feel that feeling is "right"? I didn't mean to sound condescending, honestly...but it would just kill me to have someone think that religion is so cheap to me that I'd throw it away. It's just not right.
Specifically for Faust, I'm open. That's why I'm here: I want to learn about both of you. If I seem sharp it's only because this kind of mental exercise puts me high...
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 25, 2005 22:37:50 GMT -5
We never said truth never existed, its only relevant. The supreme power that is (God, Vishnu, Nirvana, The Goddess) is the only one who knows the real truth.
And I accept your apologies and give one back, maybe I shouldn't have been so offended. I'm very very open myself, I don't condem anyone.
*passes a football to JoA* What? You said you were open!?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 22:38:04 GMT -5
"In my reality, you're boxing yourself into a cage. That's how I FEEL about it, but at least I have a basis for how I feel. Logic. Moral absolutes."
See In my POV, I see ppl who try to convince others to change to christianity (not that you are doing this) but I see them as ignorant. I mean, I can't bring myself to understand how one could think everything they believed was so right that EVERYONE else who didn't believe the same was wrong.
When I talk about Catholics and Christians, I mean what is written in books and taught, not the whole of the people who believe in the religion.
Srry guys, it's late. I will be needing to leave this conversation till later. Good night.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 22:39:28 GMT -5
To go piece by piece: "Christians often condemn homosexuals." Ok. They have their reasons. Actually, just one reason: it's wrong.
"How can they be so sure it is wrong?" They know that because their standard of truth, the Word of the One true God, tells them so.
"I definitely don't condemn them, that's not up to me. I don't pity them, I don't fear them, nothing of the sort, yet catholics and christians can be very very nasty to them." Firstly, don't separate catholics and christians. You need a history lesson! ; ) But not now... Actually, I don't necessarily pity or fear them, either. I do not condemn them. I condemn their wrong actions. I try to be a friend to anyone in need of a friend. Sometimes a friend doesn't have to be supportive of certain behaviour. The trick is learning to "condemn" an action without condemning a person. It can be done, believe me.
"My POV is different from theirs' and yes, I do believe I am right, but I don't claim it as being truth. I am not God, I cannot claim turth, nor can anyone else who is human." So, what is "right" isn't "truth"? Or do you only mean that you can't KNOW you have the truth? Or simply that you don't expect others to join you in your views? *confuzzled*
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 25, 2005 22:40:27 GMT -5
Goodnight Silver, have a good sleep, have good dreams and all that stuff.
*hugs goodnights all around!* Hugs for all!
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 22:41:47 GMT -5
Cool! *hugs back hard*
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