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Post by Dûncariel is Dead. on May 26, 2005 21:47:10 GMT -5
Ooo... I love that one. When you examine it closely, there's truly no contradiction in the Bible. God gave people a choice, yes? Good. So, when people choose not to believe in him, they are sending themselves to hell. That may sound harsh, but that's basically what the Bible says. So, you say, God doesn't love people if he allows them to send themselves to hell. The Bible also says that it breaks God's heart when people disobey him, the same way it breaks a parents heart when their child willingly does something that will hurt them in the long run.
Does that make sense? If it doesn't, I'll go through quotes, and give you verses that support my reasoning.
Mmm, sorry, missed this one. Are the two of you saying that you believe murder is right? And, if you don't think it's right, can you defend the guy who says it is? I'm just a bit confused by your reasoning, here.
Just asking.... I'm sorry if anything I say is offensive to you, but I want you to know that I'm not afraid to say it. That would show that I'm not secure, or strong in what I believe. So, I'm putting myself in the middle of it all, because I'm going to defend to the death what I believe. Even if I'm not on at the same time as ya'll to defend it.... *grins*
So, if I post late, woops...
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 27, 2005 8:45:09 GMT -5
Heres something to think about:
Why didn't God protect the tree of knowlege from Adam and Eve? He knew that they were going to take it, the two people didn't have free will then, so what stopped him?
If you say, "Well its cuz he wanted us to have a choice" then that means God created sin.
If you say, "He didn't know that was going to happen." then why is it that the bible say god is all knowing?
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Jandalfwhoisnotloggedin
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Post by Jandalfwhoisnotloggedin on May 27, 2005 9:58:06 GMT -5
God was acknowledging that sin exists, and while He didn't want Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit, or any of us to sin, He gives us the gift of free choice because He loves us enough to give us that freedom. Otherwise we'd be total and utter slaves to His perfection without an option of our own. I think I've said somewhere before: everyone is a slave to something. God, money, a significant other, Satan directly... We're all slaves, but we are given a choice of masters. And I believe that Adam and Eve did have free will even while they were in the garden, but their erstwhile perfection was enough for them not to partake of the tree until it was suggested to Eve. They were more than satisfied with what they already had; it was curiosity that led Eve to check out what the fruit had to offer.
Of course, it could be argued that God was creating sin, because God created Lucifer, didn't he? I can't be sure why Lucifer began to lust after God's absolute power. It seems angels are also given a choice of masters, though they are higher beings. It seems sin originated with Lucifer's decisions to leave heaven and attempt the climb to godhood on his own.
I think God is all-knowing, and that He did foresee it. In a way, even though it seems He allowed sin's existence, it does make me feel a lot more secure that He's got everything recorded.
I've got a question for everyone (well, two really):
Are you comfortable in your belief of the nature of truth? Did this influence your decision on which option you went with?
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Post by Jandalfagain on May 27, 2005 10:07:02 GMT -5
Ooh, bad me, sneaking in another post. (winks) Just wanted to add another comment after I reviewed the last few pages. They popped up so quickly!
I believe it is wrong to despise/spurn homosexuals for the decisions they have made. I don't wish to judge anyone for what they've done; it's not my job. I've met a few myself, and I agree with Silver. They can be wonderful people, and they often have a point of view that others lack which is refreshing. However, I do not agree with homosexuality, and while I will love homosexuals just as much as anyone else, I will continue to view it as something that should not be done.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 27, 2005 10:07:28 GMT -5
"Mmm, sorry, missed this one. Are the two of you saying that you believe murder is right? And, if you don't think it's right, can you defend the guy who says it is? I'm just a bit confused by your reasoning, here. "
No, I don't think murder is right, but the person doing the murder most likely does. People who think murder is not right, think this is definitely correct because it is what the mass population believe. If the majority of people think a similiar way, then that will be taken as what is right. It is all opinion, but once the majority starts thinking that way then that is what is taken as truth.
As for the contradiction, I'll have to think up more of an answer later, but saying God loves us and then saying we have a choice but if we choose wrong we go to Hell is like me telling someone that if they want to live they have to worship me, but if they don't they will be tortured and killed. This is forcing someone to choose what is wanted. That's not giving them much of a choice at all, is it? Yeah, there is a choice, but what is wanted is being forced. I don't like this at all.
Basically what you are saying is everyone who was believing in a different religion before Christianity was created is going to Hell? How does this work? How can you condemn someone for doing something they didn't know was right? All those people who live in tribes and never even knew about Christianity are automatically wrong, because WE think they are? And don't tell me that is why we go and try and convert them to spread the truth. NO! Do you realize that Christianity was actually derived from many of these other, more "primitive" religions? The Christianity religion did not form over night just because Jesus showed up. It took years and years and years and morphed from many different things.
I also must give Faust the credit for this next thought:
If you look up many of the names of Christian Demons, they are the names of other culture's gods. Are we that uncreative? We can't even make up our own demons, so we just say that all the gods of other cultures are demons? I know Faust has the name of some of these demons as examples. Not to mention, we say these other gods don't exist, but if we are saying they are really demons then they do exist. Then who is really god is all up to a person's perception. One person will say their god is god, while our Christian God is a demon. Maybe it's all just one big "god" war just like the Greeks had said?
Everything comes back to POV
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Post by Dûncariel is Dead. on May 27, 2005 13:49:33 GMT -5
What's this about these "Christian Demons" you're talking about? I must say, the Bible only refers to two names of Demons: Lucifer, who is Satan, and Legion, who was cast out by Jesus. I would like to see where you've come up with these...
Another question. Where does it say Adam and Eve didn't have free will? If you can show me this, I'll drop out of this argument right now, and probably agree with you. God didn't create robots.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 27, 2005 14:08:43 GMT -5
www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/N/Na/Names_of_the_demons.htmI'll have more later, but here is a good demon website that somewhat explains what I was trying to say. Yes, I have read a lot of the bible (all of Revelations) and there were quite a few named. If not in the bible, there are definitely demons named in a lot of christian literature, one being Dante's Inferno. Many many demons in that taken right from the greeks.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 27, 2005 14:24:57 GMT -5
"This is forcing someone to choose what is wanted. That's not giving them much of a choice at all, is it? Yeah, there is a choice, but what is wanted is being forced. I don't like this at all."
Free will is an interesting subject. How can God be holy and allow sin? Well, here's the truth: you don't understand what sin is. I understand this, because I used to be confused. I called myself a Christian, but acted like a dualist. Good and evil are NOT equal, opposing powers. "Evil" is not a force that was made. God is good, meaning He is GOODNESS. He is the standard. Evil is anything that falls short. This is why the analogy of light and darkness is so appropriate. Light is the good; it IS and is SOMETHING. Darkness is nothing. Dark (evil) is the abscence of light (good). We don't say that light occurs when there is no dark. Dark is nothingness, and we measure it by how much light is missing, not by how "much" dark there is. Just so with good and evil. Good it reality, evil is the lie. Good is the "something" and evil the "nothing". And when it comes to the perfect measure, "there is none good but God."
There's the logic. All you can say is that you don't like the idea. Hey, kid, that doesn't make it any less true! If you don't like it, that's because you hate the light...sad, but true...
[Ack! I'm gone for one blinkin' day...lol]
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Post by Dûncariel is Dead. on May 27, 2005 14:27:38 GMT -5
Erm.... Dante's Inferno is defintely not the Bible, nor is other Christian Literature. And the Bible was around far before the Greeks, so I can't see how that could stand. The Greeks would have to have stolen names from the Bible.
Wow...Where does this guy get his 'Christian theology'? I have never said that about anyone's gods, nor have I heard this said about any so called 'Pagan' gods. I hate that word. If that's what they want to believe, then fine. But demons? Sure, there are some that I believe are evil, and could descend from demonic experiences, such as Kali, but their names do not come from the Bible. Many of the names that are listed are there because the people in the Bible were real people. And there are people who worship the same gods that they did. Why is this strange to you?
I'd really like to know what 'Christians' the author of the site you gave has spoken to, and where he did his research. If this is his impression of Christianity, then I'm ashamed of the example we have given, very deeply ashamed. Which is why I often have trouble even discussing my beliefs, because, if a Christian begins to even mention God, they are immediately attacked. I can't count the times I've been called intolerant.
Sorry, this post really has nothing to do with Truth, and I'll probably delete parts of it later, but I want you all to read it first, so that you know my views.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 27, 2005 16:06:49 GMT -5
Actually the Bible technically was after the Greeks. Next lots of the demons such as the old Arab god (when I say Arab I mean in that area a LONG time ago) Baal, Moloch, Beezlebub, Adramelech, and even the Persian god (Persians were older than Christianity and maybe even Egyptian) Asmoday.
Did you know that there is a HUGE book of them and accounts of them all over the christian world? Just because its not in the bible doesn't mean its not written down some where. The vatican alone probably has four rooms dedicated to scroles that never made it into the bible.
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Post by Jareth on May 27, 2005 17:26:20 GMT -5
(sorry about the double post) If you want to know what is true, and what is not the answer is pathetically simple: check the Bible. that way you'll know if what something someone says is false, and you'll be able to correct it.
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Post by Jareth on May 27, 2005 17:29:48 GMT -5
Actually the Bible technically was after the Greeks. The Bible was not necessarily written the moment things happened, but certain things that happened in the Bible were before the Greeks and Egyptians. Because The Greeks and Egyptians weren't "there" until after the Tower of Babel when the different languages and such were created. I'm gonna correct myself, it takes a very long time for civilizations to build themselves up, so it was actually way after the tower of Babel P.S. I decided to delete that post so I wouldn't be triple posting.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 27, 2005 17:32:06 GMT -5
"Actually the Bible technically was after the Greeks."
Exactly.
"The Bible was not necessarily written the moment things happened, but certain things that happened in the Bible were before the Greeks and Egyptians. Because The Greeks and Egyptians weren't "there" until after the Tower of Babel when the different languages and such were created. "
How could it have been written before the egyptians and the mesopotamians? That would mean the bible has been derived from a different religion altogether.
"Erm.... Dante's Inferno is defintely not the Bible, nor is other Christian Literature. And the Bible was around far before the Greeks, so I can't see how that could stand. The Greeks would have to have stolen names from the Bible."
How do you know those books have not been written through the hand of God? How do you even know the bible was? So you are saying that there could NEVER EVER be another piece of literature written by a person who God was speaking through?
"Many of the names that are listed are there because the people in the Bible were real people."
So then then you are saying that ghosts, demons, beasts, paranormal things are all real, or at least that they were once real? Why then, do ppl have so much trouble believing in these things today?
Why does everything in the bible have to be true? How do you know God wasn't just giving examples with morals? If the bible was written by man, then why could another bible not be written today?
Also, things like Adam and Eve, the tower of Babel, Moses, and all those other things do not explain creatures such as Dinosaurs, or if you want to believe in them, aliens. Where do these things lie in this faith?
Srry for all the questions, but I am interested to hear the answers...and once again I agree with what Faust has said.
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Post by Jareth on May 27, 2005 17:35:13 GMT -5
Heres something to think about: Why didn't God protect the tree of knowlege from Adam and Eve? He knew that they were going to take it, the two people didn't have free will then, so what stopped him? That definitely is a difficult question. I have recently thought about the very same thing. He didn't want us to be like robots. He knew we would be prone to sin, it's our nature, but He still wanted us to have free will. Don't ask me why, God has His reasons, which are not always for us to know. But wouldn't you rather have free will than be controlled? It's like a toddler and his mother, she tells him not to eat out of the cookie jar, but he does anyway. It's our nature.
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Post by Jareth on May 27, 2005 17:46:28 GMT -5
"Actually the Bible technically was after the Greeks." Exactly. "The Bible was not necessarily written the moment things happened, but certain things that happened in the Bible were before the Greeks and Egyptians. Because The Greeks and Egyptians weren't "there" until after the Tower of Babel when the different languages and such were created. " How could it have been written before the egyptians and the mesopotamians? That would mean the bible has been derived from a different religion altogether. "Erm.... Dante's Inferno is defintely not the Bible, nor is other Christian Literature. And the Bible was around far before the Greeks, so I can't see how that could stand. The Greeks would have to have stolen names from the Bible." How do you know those books have not been written through the hand of God? How do you even know the bible was? So you are saying that there could NEVER EVER be another piece of literature written by a person who God was speaking through? "Many of the names that are listed are there because the people in the Bible were real people." So then then you are saying that ghosts, demons, beasts, paranormal things are all real, or at least that they were once real? Why then, do ppl have so much trouble believing in these things today? Why does everything in the bible have to be true? How do you know God wasn't just giving examples with morals? If the bible was written by man, then why could another bible not be written today? Also, things like Adam and Eve, the tower of Babel, Moses, and all those other things do not explain creatures such as Dinosaurs, or if you want to believe in them, aliens. Where do these things lie in this faith? 1. Christianity was the Jewish religion at first, but then Jesus came, died, and rose again, and it was Christianity, though some people still believed that Jesus was not the Son of God, so that is Judaism. 2. That doesn't mean that now things can't be written by God through someone, but if they don't comply with the Bible, they haven't been inspired by the Holy Spirit. 3. Ghosts, and demons are real. Paranormal beasts are also in the category demons. People like to think that Supernatural things aren't real, they want to believe they have control. 4. The Bible also speaks of Jesus having to take care of His "other flocks" that could mean that aliens are real, it could mean something else, we don't always know what God means.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 27, 2005 17:47:01 GMT -5
"The vatican alone probably has four rooms dedicated to scroles that never made it into the bible."
Ummm...that's 'cause they're NOT the Bible. *frustrated* Please don't force us to defend against attacks on what we believe from sources we never even claimed as truth!
"Joan, what you need to realize is that many people are not going to even come near to agreeing with you just because we can quote scripture till our tongue falls out."
Okay...I have a sensitive nature. Later I will cry a little for that comment. I DO realize! I've been defending my beliefs with logic, and hardly quoted any Scripture. But the fact is, if you don't say what you believe because it might turn people off, how are we to help anyone? How are we to understand each other? I've been tolerant, compassionate...at least that's ho I've tried to behave, how I always do. Can you honestly call me a Bible thumper?
"How could it have been written before the egyptians and the mesopotamians? That would mean the bible has been derived from a different religion altogether."
Say WHA?!? Ummm...clarification, por favor...? The Bible wasn't derived from any religion.
"Why does everything in the bible have to be true? How do you know God wasn't just giving examples with morals? If the bible was written by man, then why could another bible not be written today?"
Okay, I'll give you a great example. Mark 12:26-27 "But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob '? "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."
That's a quote from Jesus, in which He is using a logical arguement to prove that there will be a resurrection. Notice what He does. He tells his opponent that there must be life after death because God spoke in the burning bush saying that He IS "the God of of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". He bases his logical arguement on the TENSE OF A VERB. That would make zero sense if the story were metaphorical..."You know that previous fable? Well, there was this verb tense that really hit me..." No. Jesus knew that the Scriptures were so literally, absolutely true that this arguement would work...and it did.
To be continued... ; )
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 27, 2005 18:01:36 GMT -5
Ummm... Joan? Do you honestly beleive John or Mark just wrote the books attributed to their name? The wrote plenty of other things, yet those books were left out because it wasn't relevant to the bible or wasn't practical to put in.
Did you know that Soloman made a book about Hell? He supposedly summoned demons, namely Beezlebub and probably Ashteroth, and asked them questions! Yet that book on Hell isn't in the bible, its safe somewhere not to be seen.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 27, 2005 18:06:30 GMT -5
Then why did he go a smite happy in the old testement? If its in our nature to sin why did he kill thousands of people if they're doing what their nature is?
Yes it was, it was derived for probably some old language, to Hebrew (the scrolls), to Latin (what the original bible was printed in), to every other language (present day bible), in lots and lots of different denominations of the church! This is my opinion but thats alot of room for error
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 27, 2005 18:27:35 GMT -5
"Then why did he go a smite happy in the old testement? If its in our nature to sin why did he kill thousands of people if they're doing what their nature is?" Same reason we punish the wicked today. The nature is wicked. That doesn't mean we can't overcome our nature, with His help. Those who choose not to do so are indeed punished.
Back to the Bible...sure, there have been other historical books that have been important in Christianity. Only the Bible, however, is inspired by God. That's the only absolutely true book in existence, and that's why I make it my only standard.
The Bible going through different languages has nothing whatsoever to do with it being derived from certain religions. Like I said, the Bible is the Word of God, inspired by His Holy Spirit. It's not original with any person or group of people. It is original with God, and it is made in His perfection.
Now, if we can't quickly come to how trying to discredit the Bible impacts our original discussion, then we may need to drop it. Staying on topic is important, folks!
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 27, 2005 18:59:39 GMT -5
Okay, sorry. I just guess you don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not bashing the bible, I'm trying to give insight. The bible wasn't written by god, it was written by people, people who claim God spoke to them. Some aren't even inspired by God's talking to anyone, just accounts of the life of Jesus.
And I beleive the original topic of this thread was Truth, yet I think we're beating a dead horse, trying to get blood to come from a stone, etc, etc, so on and so forth. Silver and I have our opinions, you all obviously have your own. We've expressed our views, you have too. Eventually we get off topic and we have to be brought around to the original topic. I'd like it if we had a board just for this kinda stuff, but not in the Christianity board.
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