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Post by Cy Otauna on Nov 14, 2004 10:30:49 GMT -5
I guess, if it is needed, here can be put questions. About Christianity. What I need to know is what do you tell someone who thinks God hates her? I think it's because she doesn't like her life.
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Post by sblomietheinsane on Nov 15, 2004 10:40:48 GMT -5
Well, first of all, show her the Bible! There are plenty of verses there that show God doesn't hate her. Like these...
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His one and Only Son; that whoever believs in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Romans 8: 38-39 "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, meither present nor future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Mar 18, 2005 23:34:11 GMT -5
I don't believe showing the bible would do anything, but this is going off my own beliefs.
I personally don't believe the bible holds much truth, just symbolism. But like I said, that is only me.
I don't think you can change one's view on religion. If this girl thinks god hates her then why must you change try to change that? Perhaps she does not want to believe in god or maybe she is swerving to another religion. There is nothing wrong with that.
You must remember she may also have her reasons for thinking this. Though I believe that a mortal cannot do god's judging, so I really don't see why god would hate her, unless he came here and told her. Basically all a person can do is live their life and hope for the best when they die.
Ok I'm stopping now cuz I don't think I am making sense.
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Post by Master Warious on Mar 20, 2005 20:27:49 GMT -5
No no, I understand exactly what you're saying. I KNOW people who think the same way you do.
But once again I do not agree with what you have to say.
I'm sorry to be such a pain in the behind but Eh...Ces't moi!
I am tired of all this unbelief. Tired of the teachings of Moral Relativity, relative truth. IT's STUPID!
NO YOU CAN'T FORCE SOMEONE TO BELIEVE IN GOD. BUT IF WE WHO ARE CHRISTIAN DO NOT OR WILL NOT TELL OTHERS ABOUT THE TRUTH[/i][/u].
TO NOT TELL OTHERS SAYS WE ARE ASHAMED OF HIM WHO DIED FOR US! SHAME ON US! WE HAVE BEEN COMMANDED TO TELL OTHERS ABOUT HIM AND HIS WORD AND I FOR ONE WILL NOT STOP IN THE FACE FOR ATHEISTIC OPPISTION!
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Post by Tiana, eh? on Mar 21, 2005 3:20:05 GMT -5
Warious, no shouting matchs, please. *grins* I KNOW it's frustrating, but please, keep from the Darkside.
You can't ever force a person from believing what they want to. If you want to believe this, and the girl over there wants to believe we were all clones from multiple biological lifeforms, and the guy over there thinks Darth Vader is his science teacher in disguise-- oh, yeah, and the world was created in one large explosion-- well, I can't stop them from that. However, I can attempt to prove my case, and win them over to what I believe is truth-- what I know is truth, to be more correct.
You make perfect sense. Now we get to see whether I can do the same.
So, we start at the top point. Truth. (yes, I'm probably going to on a rant here with everything I've ever learned for the sake of proving my case) How can what one person believes as truth be just their truth, and not true for another person? If it's true for you and not for me-- well, then-- it's not true. Truth is three things. Objective, universal, and constant. Translation here-- it doesn't change throughout the world-- it's true in Canada, Australia, Italy-- and it doesn't change through the times. It's true way back when the world began, and it's true when it ends. An example of this is gravity-- we all know the law of gravity on Earth. It's a truth that it'll always pull you down. And it'll still be true as long as the Earth exists. A fact of nature, whatever. This doesn't prove the Bible is absolute truth, of course, and I won't shy away from admitting that. None of us can prove to the letter in any human way that it is true to another human.
But there's so many small things. For example, if Jesus's life and all that had been merely symbolism, how did it manage to get entire books written about it by several different authors who wrote, in essence, his autobiography? For one book to be carried through time, by authors who spoke multiple languages-- Hebrew, Arabic, so on-- through different cultures and styles of people-- fishermen, prophets, shepherds... such forth. And over the time period as well-- years on. Compair through it to science, and you will find more and more scientists are beginning to believe the Flood did, indeed happen, and more and more proof that our galaxy couldn't Just Happen. More proof that there had to be a master plan behind it all.
What 'symbolism' can line up with all of the consitancies? How can something be so painfully correct that it becomes merely a myth?
If you refuse to take it from both perspectives-- well-- I'll pray for you, then. Because what's a life without a meaning behind it but "okay, let's all live our lives to the fullest, and when we die, hope for the best-- which, of course is that we'll return as monkeys like our fathers before us and we shall rule the world with bananas!"
Silver, if you'd like to carry on giving us explanations of your beliefs, please? I actually find it very facinating to check back and prove against mine. Even if you're dead set on believing there's nothing to look forwards to.
I'm done my rant for now. Heh...
Any other questions or strange beliefs on Bibical truths that I can start lecturing on?
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Post by Tiana, eh? on Mar 21, 2005 3:23:31 GMT -5
WAIT! WAIT! I'm not QUITE done yet...
God doesn't hate her for her beliefs, even if they stray from what he teaches. God loves us as individuals, like sons, and cares for us deeply. It's our actions that he hates. And I can't think of a bibical reference, not that you'd take it seriously, but if you want I can go and find some to back that up. And there is a point to trying to convince her of that too, even if she's set in whatever beliefs she wants to be in. We're to be witnesses anyway-- just not so overpowering and stand over shoulder "I'll force you to believe in my god!" sort of thing-- like SOME religions are.
And we're not trying to change your views on "religon" (darn, I hate that word). We're merely trying to make our points clear, and what we believe in clear, so that this won't go out in a flaming match because of lack of understanding.
NOW I'm done. I hope.
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Post by Master Warious on Mar 21, 2005 15:31:28 GMT -5
sorry. my caps lock button was jammed....
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Post by sblomietheinsane on Mar 21, 2005 19:21:14 GMT -5
hehe... riiiight.
Silver, do you believe in God/Christ?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Mar 21, 2005 23:08:19 GMT -5
I have been and was confirmed Catholic, however, I have come to dislike that religion, more for the ppl rather then what it teaches. It seems that everything in Catholicism has to be so set and definite. Catholics and Christians alike always feel they must teach other's the "truth", yet what was stated above shows that no one person can know the truth. How can christians show the truth then?
Me, I'm more tolerant. I enjoy learning about other religions and incorporating their beliefs into my own. I leave myself open to acceptance, instead of trying to force my beliefs on others. I do however enjoy arguing a point, but I never say that the other is wrong. I debate more for fun...not to change the other's opinions. And even though I accept your prayers, I don't really need them lol. To me what I believe is right and so I have faith in my God that what I believe is right. I try to live life as best as I can. I try to be nice, accepting, helpful, and the best person I can be. Just because someone believes in a certain religion does not garuantee them a quick passage to heaven. I think a lot of times ppl forget they must also posses these other qualities, instead of just worrying about what religion to believe in.
Just because someone has been written about doesn't nessecarily make them exist. What about Zeus? For centuries, even before Christ, ppl have written about him. Does this make him real? Some would say yes, and others say no. I believe there was a Jesus, but I believe a lot of things written in the bible was written to give morals to ppl, not because it really happened. Just because someone throws out bible quotes would not make me believe their religion any more.
As for God's hate, how can anyone really know whether they are hated by a power they have never talked to?
One quote I thoroughly believe in is "When we talk to God, it's called prayer, but when God talks to us it's called schitzophrenia" -Agent Mulder
This is just so true. If I was to go to you and say, "God just talked to me! He told me blah blah blah." You would think I was nuts. So if you've never talked to God, how can you know that he/she/it hates you?
Everyone has different beliefs. I just don't see why Christians (in general) feel it nessecary to proclaim their belief as the only truth. Not to mention if you were to look at all the other religions, you would see that ALL of them are similar. I've personally known Wiccans, Buddhists, Jewish, Islamic, Native Americans, etc and none of these religions try to force others to believe what they do. They just accept and go on believing what they do.
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Post by Master Warious on Mar 22, 2005 14:24:30 GMT -5
*sigh* One can never really and turly understand unless they have had an actuall relationship with Jesus Christ. Oh yeah, Agent Smith makes more sence then your Agent Mulder.
I swaer the button was jammed! My dad had to fix the stuupid keyboard!
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Mar 22, 2005 15:06:40 GMT -5
Agent Smith? And what quote would that be?
So basically your saying that anyone who has a relationship with Christ is better then those that don't? Hmmm...this sounds fishy.
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Post by Tiana, eh? on Mar 22, 2005 16:03:06 GMT -5
You are taking our words and warping them. What Warious said was that no one can truly understand unless they've had a relationship with Christ. Not that we're better than everyone who hasn't.
We're not. The only difference is that we know that this is not it. This world isn't all there is, and that this isn't the Matrix, and we're all programed to a certain fate because of nothing.
Might I ask, if you believe that Jesus existed, what do you think he is/was? Is it so impossible to accept that someone could be greater than you, greater than a human, that you merely see him as a figure? Or do you believe he actually existed?
Negitive on the Zeus arguement. Following history, he was not before God existed-- there's scientific evidence that most cultures did believe in a singular God. I believe the Greek and Roman legends and myths came into being probably at a similar time to the Biblical truths.
My problem with you at the moment, Silver, is that you're generalizing all Christians together. You see us all the same way, as if we were little clones who all believe the exact same things. We don't.
Straight answer. I don't have voices in my head. God doesn't talk to me in a physical sense such as that. But I get answers, I see them in a very un schitzophrenia sense. I can't walk up to anyone and say God just talked to me and told me such and such and this and that and blah blah blah. Certainly, he can talk through people.
If YOU can't talk to God either, and get an answer, how can you know that he/she/it hates you/loves you either? At least we have the Bible with words as proof. You just have whatever you decide you need to believe in. So one day you decide stealing's perfectly fine. Is that right?
Then what's the point of believing in anything if all you do is pull what you like best out of one belief and out of another and mix it all together? You can't make a cake without a set recipe.
I think you're wrong. Everyone needs prayer. For a test in school, for the sake of finding their keys-- even small things like such.
Excuse me? Quick passage to heaven my foot... *mutters about stupid athiests* As for other qualities-- if I spent all my time worrying about faith, I wouldn't own this darn webpage!!
Really? And I suppose you believe pieces of all their beliefs too. Not that there's a problem with that-- we're not trying to change your beliefs, as you seem to think-- we're merely trying to run a decent debate here. Heh. Wiccans... they believe in Satan, then. You know, even he believes in God.
You're forgiven, Warious. Sheesh. I'm just being my admin self to make sure this doesn't go out in a flamefest like the last Christianity vs Athiesm did. Which wasn't pretty. This is merely, as Silver said, a debate for fun, and for the sake of seeing how many proofs we can come up with.
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Post by Master Warious on Mar 22, 2005 18:15:47 GMT -5
Yes but not all wiccans think they are worshiping Satan...My Youth pastor work with one at work and says she denys worshiping Satan let alone liking it( it being Satan)...*sigh*
Well. We can argue the point till our heads explode but some things/people will never change.
If we change out attitudes towards those who are not believers in Christ they will at least acknowledge we aren't like the 'Christian' extreemists. Those who kill claiming God (the God WE serve even!)told them too.
more on this later...
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Mar 22, 2005 22:42:45 GMT -5
Wait a minute, wait a minute!! Wiccans DO NOT believe in satan! They absolutely do NOT! Wiccan is an elemental religion based on the five elements of Earth. In Wiccan, one believes in the God of your choosing. One could believe in the Christian God and still be Wiccan. Just please, don't come to conclusions about other religions if you do not fully know about them. To me saying they believe in Satan is somewhat insulting. Srry, had to get that out.
Everyone may need prayers, but I don't think anyone likes prayers that is asking God to forgive them for believing in a different religion.
I don't think it really matters what I believe in. No I'm not Atheist, I'm Catholic, and I say I'm catholic because its true. However, I have different beliefs. That doesn't mean I am not catholic, it just means I am a different sort of catholic.
For me, my animals represent God. Animals are beautiful creatures and since I have been around them all my life I see them as beings, not just things. I find peace with the animals and even just looking into their eyes gives me a feeling of serenity. To me, this is church. This is where God is. I don't have to be in some building with a priest, I can be anywhere. You can be anywhere. Maybe your church is an actual church, or maybe your room, or maybe in prayer. It doesn't matter where. If you are a believer and loyal to God, you don't have to prove it to anyone. God knows and that's all that matters.
If you try to be the best person you can be; meaning kind, accepting, generous, etc, then even if you do end up in Hell, at least you know you gave it your all. Isn't that what matters most? The quality of your life and the effect you had on others? Right now that's what matters most to me. Its not trying to get into heaven. Frankly I don't care where I go, because I know it will be an adventure. Did you ever just think that when we die, we might just be dead and in the ground. DEAD, never going anywhere? Is this the reason we believe in a heaven and Hell, to give us comfort from the thought of dying and going no further?
Really, I could care less what everyone's religion is. If no one ever talked about religion, there would be such a great amount of deaths prevented, keep wars from starting, and just all around evil stopped. Religion has been turned into an evil thing over the years. Even now talking here, ppl have been getting angry. I don't see the point. I don't see the point in having something that causes so much anguish. Humans are just....well humans, and they always will be. Continually fighting and tearing eachother apart, because they can't master a simple thing called tolerance. If you want to pray for something, pray for this: for everyone to find peace. With so much depression and what not going around in this world, people need something...
I'll stop now as I don't think I'm making much sense. It's not easy explaining emotions and beliefs. It's so...personal.
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Post by Eowyn the lazy on Mar 23, 2005 1:01:36 GMT -5
I'm too tired to login, but I feel the need to clear one thing up before I collapse on my keyboard.
I'm not. Just to clear things up, I pray for everyone in their daily lives. I'm not asking God to forgive you for a different and strange belief. That's just... *shrugs* If you want to believe the way you do, I don't care. This debate is for the heck of it, and if you're taking everything personally-- well, obviously it's because you're taking it to heart, at least, and not as a fun debate. But I'm not praying for God to forgive you for "having a different religion". I'm just praying for you for the heck of it, as I do for a lot of people. That your pets do all right, and all that. But I do pray, and that, for me, is what matters. That I don't believe in nothing.
And I don't believe that you can't be with God only in church. And I don't believe that Sunday's the only day for church. You're generalizing again.
And I do pray for peace, and I do think you make perfect sense. No matter what you think you're making, you make absolute sense to me, and that's why I'm keeping this debate going. Because you do make some sense, and if you didn't... well... I'd dub this a flamefest, close it, and send it off to the darkest shadows.
My appologies. I'll stick to debating on Islamic, and athiest and possibly Jewish beliefs. *dryly* But that had been the impression I had received from a few books I had read-- and they weren't all Christian books too, they were ordinary fantasy books. I will consider myself informed. And start doing more research on a few issues.
And this is too long a post for unsigned in me... snrk. Yeah. BUBBYE FOR NOW... and I'll be back in all my signed in glory. Someday. Snrk.
I'd like to ask a favor on this thread though-- for ALL of us to stop assuming everything about the other beliefs. It's becoming rather annoying fielding your directing everything you've gathered about Christians at us, and it's not rather nice for us to be assuming everything about your beliefs. Let's maybe keep this a bit more generalized?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Mar 23, 2005 8:58:53 GMT -5
I think everyone is taking this personally...not just me, as it is a very personal subject. No one has gotten really nasty yet, so I think if everyone respects eachother and tries to learn instead of fight, this discussion could continue civily. For example:
Generalizing? I think you may be assuming that I have been pointing this at you and I don't mean to, but when one types it does not always come out the same way as in words. I'm basically GENERALIZING to be GENERAL. Which was stated here:
I think that is kind of contradicting. And don't forget, I am Christian too, so nothing is directed towards you. When I say Christian, that includes myself too, No? So then nothing is directed towards any one person, just in general. Obviously I know not every christian is nasty or like the stereotype "perfect extremist christian". I am just generalizing to make things simple, so please no one take anything personally.
I am not proclaiming my beliefs to be true, at least not anymore then you guys. They are simply beliefs and thats all I am writing them as. If you see it as "proclaiming my beliefs as truth" then this is not what I have been trying to do. I started this to start an interesting debate and because it was the forum that caught my eye, because my friend Cy had posted here. However, just as a suggestion, since I'm sure we have several different religions here on this board, perhaps another forum can be started that includes all religions, instead of just Christianity. Again, this is just a suggestion, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, but I think it would be a good idea. Other religions and other ppl with different beliefs have a lot to offer, and that way others would be more invited to come join in the talks, instead of a bunch of Christians against one "different" or "renegade" Christian.
If I am wanted to leave, I have no problem with that. I will go quietly...
I don't think my beliefs are strange, just different. I'm sure there are others who believe in similar things to mine. Though strange can be good...depending on how you think of it. I hate normal people, so I would rather be strange. Sets me apart from the rest...
Anyway, have to get back to my research. I enjoyed this debate and I am not angry with anyone, and I hope no one is taking this so seriously that they are angry. It's a serious topic, yes, but it can be discussed civily. I think before I continue I need to get someone else to back up my opinions though. I can't debate very well on my own without backup.
Oh well, off to search for backup. lol "Now where did I put my army again?..."
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Post by sblomietheinsane on Mar 23, 2005 13:43:07 GMT -5
I certainly believe that as well! The definition of church isn't a building or wherever there's a priest. For me, I feel closer to God when I'm surrounded by his creations. Like I went to a camp last year and we were allowed to go anywhere around to have our devotions. I usually went out into the woods and sat with my against a tree. I feel like God is sitting right next to me.
I agree with you when you say that you don't need to prove anything to anyone else. God sees the heart, and He knows everything! Therefore, no matter what anyone else says, it is what God says that ultimately matters.
Weeeell... I think in a sense. If you try to be the best person you can so you can go to heaven, then I don't think so. I believe the only way to go to heaven is through Christ. After that, being the best person you can, with Christ's help, is what we are supposed to do. If you genuinely accept Christ into your heart, and undertand you are a sinner, then you have a gurantee you're going to heaven-nothing can separate you from Him, except yourself.
I think everything Silver said was perfectly non-argumentary... I hope everything I said was, too.
Oh yeah, and where I say "you" I mean "a person"... bad habit I have. I'm not referring to anyone in particular.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Mar 23, 2005 15:00:31 GMT -5
Hehe, yeah I have that problem too.
I think all that was very well said, Sblomie the Insane. Hehehe, I like your name.
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Post by Jandalf on Toast on Mar 23, 2005 21:39:51 GMT -5
Heh. This is a very interesting thread.
I actually think you're coming up with several very good points, Silver. Aaaaand...I agree with everything Sblomie just said.
Recently, I've undertaken a few projects dealing with various world religions, as well as some history surrounding the Christian church. Some of the things you can find out about what's happened in the four thousand previous years are absolutely wild. I think religions/belief systems have experienced a major shift recently, even only in the past three to four hundred years. As more and more people become literate, they come to see how they've been led by the nose for thousands of years, especially in the Christian church. Literacy was and still is an incredible power, and as more common people gained that power, they found many of the things that nobility and even some of the clergy had been telling them were completely off due to Scripture. I think there's been a lot of spiritual shifting and turmoil in these past three to four hundred years as more people are able to see what they were actually wanting to believe, and as more people are able to interpret it according to their various opinions.
Even seeing and deeply researching all that I have about different religions, various paradigms, variations on the idea of Christianity, and skimming through veritable lists of gods/goddesses/universal powers, I still have to say that the faith I've got right now is the one I prefer overall.
Silver, what you said about experiencing a sort of touch with God through animals is very believable to me. I've felt him in nature, as well. Only makes sense, after all, because he made all of it. There's something very real in the core of what you can feel in nature that, to me, is enough proof on its own that God exists.
Not everyone may agree with me on this, and this is an obviously Christian perspective on it. Heh. Sometimes Jandalf likes to talk subjectively. Anyway:
I agree with that statement very much. Religion has been given an extremely bad reputation in many ways over the course of history. Biblethumpers certainly don't help anything, especially when they resort to thumping with the sharp ends of swords instead of Bibles. That's happened far more frequently than I like. In fact, I'd consider just one occurrence of that to be far too many. The problem with many Christians in the past (and present, even) is that they never bothered to try and make friends with the people they sought to convert. The very word "convert" makes many people shrink away for that reason, and I absolutely loathe that fact. I believe in making friends with someone and then sharing beliefs with one another. If said friend decides that your system of beliefs has something more to it than their own, then that's for them to decide.
What some Christians don't seem to realise is that the most powerful right given to mankind is the power of choice. You always have a choice. Even if someone's pointing a gun at you and demanding for you to do something OR ELSE, you still have a choice. To me, denying someone their choice, especially in beliefs, is a terrible thing.
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Post by Trinity on Mar 27, 2005 14:34:35 GMT -5
Whoaaaaa...... I know I haven't been on for a while, but whoa. Okay... *takes deep breath*...
Alright, I have read through this very interesting thread and have decided to post my say on various different things brought up. Now, I don't mean to offend anyone, and I will try my absolute hardest not to, I promise!!!!
I fully believe that you can be with God other places other than church. His spirit is not confined to a man made building. Remember, we as Christians (and yes, I am one, JESUS RULES!!!!) are the temple of the Holy Spirit. He dwells in us wherever we are. Shoot, I have felt God's presence in the middle of math class! It says in 1 Corinthians 6:19 " Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?". Awesome verse for more than one reason, but it says it right there.
And that leads me onto another topic brought up by SilverSergyon13.
" Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." John 17:17 The Bible IS God's word, and as it says here, God's word is truth.
" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1. Everything that you will find in the Bible is God breathed. Sure, men physically WROTE down the actual words, but God inspired it. It is His love letter to us.
If you are a Christian, meaning you have a personnal relationship with Jesus Christ, you aren't going to hell.
- Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3
We get to heaven not through our works, but through Christ's grace and salvation. None of us are worthy and never will be! There is no way we could get into heaven by our works because we will never be good enough. But in John 3:16 it says. " For God so loved the world that He sent His only Son so that whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life." That is how you go to heaven, by believing in Jesus and asking Him to cleanse you from you sins and make you white as snow. It is a gift of LOVE. And, like Sblomie said (very nicely, I might add), once you make this commitment, nothing can ever seperate you form God. He will never take it back.
I agree with Jandalf on choice. God gave us a free will, and you wanna know why? Because He wanted us to CHOOSE Him, not be forced into a relationship with Him by Himself or others. You can choose to believe what you want. It's your choice.
Like I said at the beginning, forgive me for offending anyone if I did! I don't usually like debating, but this time it was different... But this is what I believe.
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