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Post by Empress Adrienne Gollumeyessss on Mar 29, 2005 23:11:42 GMT -5
I've been reading this thread and finally decided to say something.
Um, I think I need to contradict you there. Those things are very important, but when your life on earth ends, eternity goes on forever. So if do all those things, but don't trust Jesus for your salvation, you'll, quite frankly, end up in hell. And you'll be in hell for eternity. And hell is NOT a nice place. Perhaps all your friends will be there, but, contrary to popular belief, you won't be throwing a party. It'll be dark but always burning and you'll be tortured continually forever, because of that, you won't be able to talk to your friends. You'll be alone. *shudders* That's horrid, and I don't want anyone to go there! Jesus doesn't either, but He gives everyone a choice. We all deserve to go there, because each one of us is a rotton sinner, but then Jesus made a way out! Tell Him you're a sinner and you're sorry and trust. Trust in Him.
I really really want you to care. Hell is a horable place, and as I said before I don't want anyone to go there. This is the reason why I'm continuing the debate. Please think about this.
<<Oh yeah, and where I say "you" I mean "a person"... bad habit I have. I'm not referring to anyone in particular.>> Oops, same here...
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Mar 30, 2005 1:53:16 GMT -5
So your saying that a person of another religion could be caring, kind, charitable...everything a good and loving person should be, but because he doesn't believe in the Christian God he will just automatically go to Hell?
If a rotten, horrific, torturing murderer, whos committed every crime known, knows and believes in God/Jesus after he's done all this and he worships the christian God and asks for forgiveness, he will just go to Heaven? He will go to Heaven while the "perfect" person who believes in a different religion goes to Hell?
I don't think ANYONE can say who goes to Heavens and who goes to Hell. If you told someone they were going to Hell because they don't believe in God, you are stooping down to the same level as those playing with science to become a sort of God. Humans should not judge other humans. It doesn't even have to be with religion, it could be with anything. One example would be clothes. Maybe someone wears very ragedy clothes and just because of this one may judge him and think he's poor or doesn't care about the way he looks, but how in the world do you know this?
I was having a similar conversation with someone at my lunch table and he happens to be going to a missionary in Nicaragua. At first I was somewhat upset that he was going to try and "convert" people of another religion to Christianity, but he told me that he is simply going to help build a church. Whether or not the people want to become Christians is up to them. For some reason I found this a very noble thing to say. I just don't get why We, as Christians just can't give the other relgions their space. God may have given humans a choice, but us as humans don't give our fellow beings a choice. All throughout time ppl have forced others into Christianity, and while today they don't kill those who refuse to convert, people still deem it neccessary to say all those people of that religion do not know the truth and they will ultimately end up in Hell.
And speaking of Eternity...It's a long time to be happy in Heaven too. Having feelings is something I enjoy. I even enjoy being sad. Not the reason why I am sad, but it makes me happy to be able to express my feelings. If I was just to be eternally happy, I would not be happy. I need something more. And if Heaven is just a euphoric state where everything is fine and dandy, I say I can have that here on Earth. There are countless times when I feel like there is nothing better, nothing that would make me more happy. I don't need to go to Heaven, as I experience it everyday. Even a little thing, like getting a chore done right the first time, or just having free time to do whatever you want...this is what makes me the happiest and I couldn't even imagine anything better. However, if I was just to stay like this foverever and ever and ever, I would be very bored.
But this conversation brings me to a whole new point completely....reincarnation....
Srry I went off topic....and when I say "you" I don't mean anyone in particular...you guys know what I mean lol
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Post by Trinity on Mar 30, 2005 12:54:08 GMT -5
Yes, they will go to heaven because, through Christ's amazing gift of salvation and His grace, He has forgiven them as no one else ever could. Because Christ's forgiveness blots out every sin you could have EVER possibly commited. No sin is too great to Him. In fact, all sin is the same. I mean, sure you will have consequences differeing on the sin you have commited here on earth. But to God, sin is just that: sin. Take a "little" sin as we would call it, like lying. You lie to your parents, and if they find out, they would likely ground you or something like that as consequences. But then take a "big" sin, like mudering, torturing, ect. You get caught doing that, you will get anything from life in prsion to death row. Those are earthly consequences, but when you call on Christ's name, admit you are a sinner, and ask for Him to forgive you and come into your heart, it takes it all away. I personally find this mind blowing, as anyone would, but God's wisdom and love surpasses that of man. It's pretty awesome!
Sadly, this is true, because you you do not obtain heaven through works, but through faith. Don't get me wrong, it's good that he /she is a good person, but unless they have the forgiveness and personal relationship with Jesus Christ, then sadly they will not go to heaven. It makes God sad, because He wants to be with us and love us and spend eternity with us. But it's up to us to choose Him.
This is ABSOLUTELY true, because only God is fit to judge us.
Psalm 9: 7 says, "But the Lord shall endure forever, He has prepared His throne for judgement"
God looks not at your clothes or any outward appearance, but at the thing that only He can see: you heart. He sees your thoughts and, when we get to heaven, not only will we be judged for our thoughts and actions, but also for the motive we had behind them. And that can seem scary sometimes, but as if you are a Christian, then all these things were already forgiven.
Dude, in this human state, I don't think our minds are capable of even IMAGINING what heaven is going to be like! We cannot possibly comprehend the enormity of heaven. I mean, it says in the Bible that they don't have a SUN in heaven because it is all lit up and shining with God's glory.
1 Corinthians 2: 9 says, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
And, I'm sorry, but if heaven is like earth, well.... that would suck. Because it would be like dying and waking up in the same state that you were in before. I would take heaven over ANYTHING this earth had to offer me. Worshipping God for all of eternity sounds so wonderful...
You are right, eternity is a LONG time, but personally, I would rather spend eternity in a joy - filled, happy heaven where I would forever be in the presence of God than hell.
Ditto on the "you thing". I'm not talking about anyone in particular...
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Mar 30, 2005 18:45:52 GMT -5
I think I would rather go where the kind, loving, charitable person is going, rather then be with murderers and evil people who believe in God. And this is where I get angry with the Christian religion. God is supposed to be loving and kind and accepting, yet we believe he only likes Christians? That's kind of biased isn't it? This is where my belief that all gods are the same comes in. I think every god from every religion is referring to one God. They are all alike in some ways so then why are the differences magnified so much?
Don't get me wrong, but I would rather believe that when I die I would just be dead and going nowhere else, then believe that a person who is everything one should aspire to be is going to Hell or eternal Purgatory for being in a different religion. This God sounds nasty and not one I would like to follow. Just going to heaven because one has a relationship with God is like someone being friends with a killer so they won't be killed, instead of working hard and being nice in order to save themselves from death. It's almost like the cliques we have in school. Christians make it seem like God only likes those who worship him, all the rest of the people can go to Hell for all he cares (I mean this literally lol, not in the cursing way) In my eyes, this God isn't giving people too much of a choice. A lot of Christians ( I in no way mean all of them) but a lot make God sound like some kid who wants to be the most powerful, and he doesn't care who gets hurt in his quest for power.
Now these points are just from experiences I've had through my church and with other Christians. I in no way mean all Christians are the same way.
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Post by Trinity on Mar 31, 2005 0:46:06 GMT -5
God DOES love everyone! He created you, and He loves you more than anyone could every possibly imagine! Oh my goodness, there are so many verses I could give to you that explain God's amazing love for us, but I would be up until all hours and 'tis late already.
1 John 4:16 says, "And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him"
I also forgot the most important thing: you see, sin is what separates us from God. As humans, we are all born with a sin nature. All of us have it. God loves the man, but hates the sin, so when you ask Him to forgive your sins (no matter how big the are), then the sin is gone and you are no longer separated from God spiritually. How did he do this? By dying on the cross. Jesus came to die so He could spend eternity with us because He loves us so much. Jesus was innocent and without blemish, and He died that horrible death so we could be saved. Because He LOVES us SO much.
And if that isn't love, then I don't know what is.
I don't want to condemn anyone in this, but I must speak. I don't like it when people call Christianity a religion. It is a personal relationship with God. It is faith. One of my favorite verses is Hebrews 11:1 where it says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen". Best definition for faith I have ever read.
Now, I REALLY need to go to bed because I have to get up at teh crack of dawn tomorrow, so goodnight to all!
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Post by Master Warious on Mar 31, 2005 13:04:41 GMT -5
Now for my two cents worth...
Mon ami, if those murders and evil people believe in God and Really want to follow Him then they would not do those things. Even the Darkest, most evil and cruel person can change their ways. A poem I wrote had a similar criticism. But it's true Jesus can change the heart that is willing to change for the better. Even if Edward Hyde decided to change his evil and cruel ways he would be forgiven.
Forgiveness and change come with a relationship with Jesus.
Any one can believe in God. But it means nothing unless you have faith in Him. We are justified through our faith. That is what cleanses the murderers and criminals of their wrongs.
You(generalizing) can be the most heartless murderer and still change. That does not erase what they did. But God forgives.
Without forgiveness, what good is living? What would our purpose be if we were not forgiven of our wrongs? All would be meaningless. and if there is one thing that causes people to kill themselves, it is the lack of a purpose because they do not see one.
My heart cries for those people. It will never stop crying.
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Post by Trinity on Mar 31, 2005 19:10:01 GMT -5
EXACTLY!!!!! Well spoken, Warious!!!! Jesus changes the heart. You WANT to love Him, serve Him, and follow His will for your life. You WANT to bring glory to God so others may see your light.
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Post by sblomietheinsane on Apr 1, 2005 12:26:00 GMT -5
Galatians 3:22 "But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was oromised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe." (Emphasis added.)
Romans 3:20 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we became conscious of sin."
I love that last verse. Silver, yes, someone can be the best person possible, but still, next to Christ, who is the standard of all we must be, God will still see that person as sinful, because God's standard is absolute perfection. When you confess and understand that you are a sinner, and you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, your sins disappear; you are washed with Christ's blood. Since He was perfect, He died in our place; otherwise, we all would go to the place down under... and I'm not talking about Australia. (ok, that was lame... sorry.)
Ouch. That hurts. But... some of it is true. There isn't much choice; only one, actually. But you must remember that humans' chief purpose is to gloify God and enjoy Him forever. God created us, therefore He can do what he likes with us. I know that sounds morbid... but overall it's true.
Completely true! I can tell everyone what I want, but like we're talking about in the other thread, I can't make someone believe it. It's all up to God and the person.
I won't even start talking about predestination and all that.
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Post by Caffeinerush on Apr 3, 2005 20:21:59 GMT -5
Well this might have been said already but here it goes "I think I would rather go where the kind, loving, charitable person is going, rather then be with murderers and evil people who believe in God." Like Sblomie said, we are all guilty of sin, and much of our sin someone has can't see by the contact we get with the person. "Every person who hates someone has already commited murder"this a Bible verse stating that the sin for hating and murder are equivilent. Also, when the murders and "evil" people go to heaven (if they believe in him) then they will get new, pure, holy bodies. In heaven there is no sin. There is no possible way you could know of their past.
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Post by Jandalf on Toast on Apr 6, 2005 18:08:28 GMT -5
I don't. Not for a second do I believe that he only likes Christians. I think that's one of the major deceptions people will buy into: that God only loves the people who do exactly as he says. That's not true, and it never has been. It's easy for someone to fool themselves into thinking God doesn't love them if they estrange themselves from him and reject his love by saying he doesn't have any for them in the first place. God still loves them the same he ever did, the same he does everyone else, but in order to feel loved, that person will have to accept the fact that they are loved unconditionally and without question. And the only way to begin to grasp the extent of God's true love for you is to accept Jesus's role as a final sacrifice.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Apr 6, 2005 21:01:23 GMT -5
I have been doing some thinking about this thread lately and I have finally been able to put my one main belief into coprehendable words.
I believe that God created all creatures, including humans, equal, but he put them on this Earth for different reasons.
I was also thinking about the fact that it had been said the bible was written by those who had had dreams and visions. Supposedly God had inspired these people and guided them to write the bible. I don't know if any of you have read "The Divine Comedies of Dante's Inferno", but I am recently in the middle of reading this book. I did some research on it and the man who wrote it had had a dream. He claimed the dream was sent by God, so that he could see what Hell was like and he could spread the word so that others would change their ways to get to Heaven. Why then, has this poem not become like the bible? Both the bible and this poem were supposedly inspired by the hand of God, yet many believe Dante's works to be a work of fiction and nothing more.
(The poem is really good if you enjoy that kind of stuff. It's a bit gory, but the ideas of it are brilliant. I bet a lot of good artwork could be drawn from the images described. There are centaurs, minotaurs, Medusa, Harpies, and all kinds of mythical creatures described in it. Actually if you've ever read Frankenstein, this poem was mentioned in that book also, as well as a few others. In the series "Remnants" by K.A. Applegate, the world built by the aliens in the spaceship is based upon Dante's works. It's just all so interesting, so if you can get your hands on a copy, I definitely recommend reading it! I think a lot of you would enjoy it!)
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Post by sblomietheinsane on Apr 11, 2005 12:15:03 GMT -5
I thought I posted here... Yarg, guess not.
Anyways, many people mistakenly say that God "inspired" the Bible to be written. It really is more like God wrote the Bible through certain people. He told them what to write.
I have a great verse that I must go find... I'll edit it in later.
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Post by Jareth on May 18, 2005 12:58:41 GMT -5
I don't think you can change one's view on religion. that's not entirely true. Look at Saul, he killed thousands of Christians and in the end, he was one of the greatest and most famous believer in the Bible.
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Post by sblomietheinsane on May 18, 2005 13:15:12 GMT -5
yes, but it wasn't a human wo changed him, it was Christ. Christ alone can change someone.
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Post by Mekka on May 18, 2005 13:59:49 GMT -5
That's true... although Christ may use a human to bring about the change. God working through man.
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Post by Jareth on May 18, 2005 14:47:52 GMT -5
exactly.
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Post by Eomer Kenobi- Gaara fan on May 18, 2005 14:52:51 GMT -5
Ok people can change others beliefs too. a few weeks ago there was a famous murderer who kidnapped this woman who was a Christain. THis dude was one of THE top 10 most wanted and she led him to the Lord of Course it wasn't her words is was Jesus speaking through her and this dude turned himself in and was later exacuted. but still he's in Heaven now. With God's help you can do anything
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 19, 2005 14:39:33 GMT -5
I hate posting on these threads but I've got a few things to say.
1) I agree with Silver on a lot of things. Way to go. 2) I think that people need to stop saying "your going to hell because you don't conform with our religion" cuz unfortuanately all we have is a book that was has been passed down through the ages and so is not completely trustworthy. 3) Wasn't Jesus human? 4) I beleive in many weird things. (Don't ask what) So my veiwpoints are different than most other people's. 5) Finally I beleive in a god. I'm still doing some soul searching. If you REALLY get to know me I am a very spiritual person, yet not a religous one. Therefor I am open to everybodies opinions and will never judge like I know so many people do.
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Post by Mekka on May 19, 2005 15:07:35 GMT -5
Believing in a "god" isn't enough, Faust. Our Christ demands that we follow him wherever he leads us, and trust him completely, even the ENTIRETY of his Word (the Bible). It's all or nothing, Faust. You can't have it both ways.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 19, 2005 16:13:11 GMT -5
Pan, you're allowed to have your opinion.
I on the otherhand prefer to, like Silver said, incorporate different aspects of religion into my own mindset. I was and techically still am a Catholic (that new pope isn't going to around for long is he? Hes already 70 something), yet religion is very confusing at times. I actually admire the Wiccan faith because of all the wonderful ideas they have, highest of all is tolerance.
And maybe I should have rephrased my last post: I meant that I believe in a God like the Christian one, yet I don't think hes some old bearded man who likes to wear white bathrobes. Nor do I think the Bible is needed to be taken word for word. Symbolism, heh.
Once again I have to say I agree with 99% of everything Silver says, as do lots of my friends.
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