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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jun 14, 2005 19:28:27 GMT -5
With permission from the overlords, I am hereby beginning the creation/evolution debate thread! Let there be educational, uplifting discussion! Since this is the Christian discussion thread, let's please keep it to theistic evolution. Meaning that both sides agree (at least for this thread): - There is God.
- God is ultimately the Author of life.
- The summary description of God as a being--infinite, omnipotent, eternal.
If 'tis agreeable... ; )
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Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaiya on Jun 14, 2005 21:10:26 GMT -5
*shuffles on in* ... Hello. *nervous and shifty glance* I... believe... in... both! Yes... yes I do...
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Post by JoA on Jun 15, 2005 9:56:40 GMT -5
*interested* Explanation to follow?
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Post by Cy Otauna on Jun 17, 2005 10:28:47 GMT -5
You can, as my mom does, belive that this is the event of things; #1. God created animals. People also. #2. Animals evolved. Did the people? I don't know. I'm not into this; my discussion of the creation debate usually gets into cosmology. Basically I think Kaiya is saying animals did evolve after God put them on this earth, and according to his design. This explains the few 'missing links', and really the debate itself. It's like God is giving us a chance to argue, for free will.
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Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaiya on Jun 17, 2005 13:46:01 GMT -5
*takes a deep breath* Ok... Here it goes.
I believe that, yes, God created the world and all life on it. However, how he did it is unclear to me. I could take the creation story in Genesis word for word if I wanted to, but it leaves some things unexplained and contradicts scientific evidence that we have today. So, I don't like to follow the telling of the story word for word, as none of us were there to witness the creation of the world. The Bible says that God created the Earth in seven days. What if this is simply how God's message came across to man, to help him understand it better? Or perhaps it's misunderstood. I don't know. But I think that God created the Earth and all life over thousands and thousands of years. After all, God has an eternity to do such things, so such long amounts of time probably aren't that long at all if you think about it. So let's take this step by step...
The Bible states that in the beginning, God created the universe, and the earth was formless and desolate. Many scientific theories say that this is true. How formless it was just depends on the theory. If you like to think about the Big Bang theory, perhaps our earth was originally so formless that it was rock and debris floating in space, drawn together by gravity. Whatever. I don't know, science doesn't claim to know either. We simply hypothesize.
It says that the world was covered in darkness, and God said "Let there be light." Ok. God created the sun to light and warm the earth. Fine. Then he separated the light from the darkness and named the light day and the darkness night. Ok. Our world spins, giving us day and night. God's work.
Then he made a dome to divide the water of the world and keep it in two separate places. He named the dome the sky. Ok. So we have water on earth and water vapor above it. Fine. He named the land and the sea. Then he commanded plants to grow on the earth. And so plants formed. Scientists would say that bacteria, protists, and fungi came first. However, primitive man didn't know about bacteria or protists given the fact that you can't normally see these things with the unaided eye. They also didn't know the difference between fungi and plants. So yeah, if you look at it from the view of the man that wrote this, plants came first.
Then God commanded lights to appear in the sky to separate day from night and show the time. Ok. God creates the other stars and planets, plus our own moon. Fine. However, it is written that THIS is the day when the sun was created. How did we have night and day earlier if the sun wasn't yet created? We all know that day and night without the sun is impossible. The first major conflict that we have between religion and science. The Bible also states that the sun and the moon were there to separate light and darkness. But God already separated light and darkness before, didn't he? So what's going on here? Dunno. It's quite confusing if you ask me.
Then God commanded that the water and air be filled with creatures. Science says that the first animals were the ones in the water. Ok. However, much of science also states that birds didn't come until later, evolving from the dinosaurs. Another conflict. Perhaps insects came around this time, but I doubt the birds did.
Now God creates all of the land animals. We already have the sea animals, and science says that land animals evolved from sea animals. Ok. I can believe that. We went on to amphibians, then to reptiles, then to birds and mammals. All right.
Then came the humans. Everything else came before us, but then God created us in his image. Ok. This gives us some reason as to why other primates evolved differently. We were meant to be culturally, mentally, and physically superior and created in God's image. So we evolved this way, the other primates evolved in their own separate ways, all according to God's plan.
So, we don't have too much that conflicts with the word for word interpretation of the Bible. Yes, there's the matter of the period of time, the sun, and the birds, but that's really about it. God created the earth, then he created the plants, then the animals, and then us. There's nothing there that I disagree with. I simply disagree on the manner in which he did it. I can't ignore scientific evidence that supports evolution. Why do dinosaur fossils resemble the skeletons of birds? Why do whales have extra bones in their bodies that are never used and serve absolutely no purpose? Why do birds have scales on their legs and feet? Why do we find skeletons of primates that are only a few feet tall and resemble us in the way that we are built and the way that we move? Why were people back in the time of our founding fathers so small compared to today's humans? There are too many questions that I can't ignore. So that's why I believe in both creation and evolution.
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Post by Trinity on Jun 17, 2005 14:54:44 GMT -5
Okay *takes deep breath*.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:1-5
Okay, let me break this down. What is being talked about here is the Holy Trinity. That is a discussion for another time, however. Just know that the Trinity is made up of God the Father (God), God the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. They are the same, yet different. The Word, in this verse, is Jesus. God was in the beginning, before anything was ever created. No one knows where God came from, but He was there. Without Him, nothing could be made. So, if God did not exist, all that we see in His creation now would not exist. We would not exist, the planets would not exist, nothing. The light being talked about is Jesus, and the darkness is man. When Jesus came to the earth, He was a light being shone in the darkness of men, but men did not understand this light (thus the crucifixion) and many still don't. But the light of Jesus is still in the world today through Christians.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1
God, in His infinite wisdom that man cannot understand, created the universe. A definition of "create" is to make something out of nothing. and what a lot of it comes down to is faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Myself, I believe that God alone created the universe and all that is in it in seven days. Actually, it would be six days because He rested on the seventh day.
And also notice in Genesis 1:1-28, the phrase, "And God said," is used when describing how God created everything. In verse 24 it says: Then God said, " Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to it's kind: cattle and creeping things and beast of the earth, each according to it's kind." So God literally SPOKE everything into existence (and judging by some of the odd creatures we have today, He got pretty creative!). I know it's hard to wrap your mind around it, but it's right in Genesis if you want to read it.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jun 17, 2005 20:00:40 GMT -5
And there's where we are different, Kaiya. When the Bible and science conflict, I alway go with the Bible. Scientists have been know to be wrong, and to change their opinions. Not so God.
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Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaiya on Jun 17, 2005 21:47:18 GMT -5
My beliefs are a combination of faith and facts. I don't just sway with people's opinions, not even scientists'. Theories come and go. But there are some things that are just right there in front of my face that I cannot deny or ignore. Physical evidence that tells me that we were not always what we are now. The skeleton called Lucy for example. Scientists don't have to tell me that Lucy and I are somehow connected. I can see that easily enough on my own by looking at the photographs and movies. A small, biped primate that no longer exists. There's something to that. Just as there's something to the fact that in Abraham Lincoln's time, being six feet tall was incredibly rare. Or the fact that Mrs. Washington's dresses from the beginning of our nation would probably only fit a child of our times, unless you can find a modern woman who's unusually small. These are facts, not theories, not something that I can brush away as mere opinions. I have dozens of examples that show me that evolution exists, although we may not know all of the details about it. Besides, as I stated before, there's not that much that really conflicts with the Bible. The only issue that most people can't seem to get past is the period of time that God created life in.
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Post by Jareth on Jun 18, 2005 12:03:42 GMT -5
I don't think one can believe in both, evolution, is like there was a big boom and a flash of light, and there was earth, no God, no nothing. God made man perfect, there was no mutation or slowly growing from a slime ball into a human form. "God made man perfect" because He made man in His image, but there was the Fall, and man was imperfect. (just to clear that up) Evolutionists believe that you rot in your grave, and you're just dead at the end of life, but Christians or people who believe in some sort of spirituality believe that you go to heaven, hell, the devine, become little rain clowds in the sky (I seriously met someone who believes that), become part of God, own a little planet, become part of the universe, and tons of other things, there's no mixing them, there's one, or the other. no in between. you cannot mix them.
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Post by Jareth on Jun 18, 2005 12:05:58 GMT -5
And there's where we are different, Kaiya. When the Bible and science conflict, I alway go with the Bible. Scientists have been know to be wrong, and to change their opinions. Not so God. exactly, scientists used to have evidence that the earth was flat...
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Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaiya on Jun 18, 2005 13:05:57 GMT -5
Wow... Sorry, mate, but that's not the least bit true. And that's not just my opinion, that's a fact. There are TONS of people that believe in both evolution and creation. Evolution has nothing to do with life after death or whether or not there is a God. NOTHING. Evolution deals only with species changing over time. Nothing more. You don't have to agree with evolution, but don't tell me that those of us that believe in it cannot possibly be Christians. To tell me that I'm not a Christian just because I take scientific proof into consideration is the highest insult you could give me. I believe God created life. I believe in heaven and hell. I also happen to believe that species evolve over time. So obviously, I can, and do, mix evolution and creation, thank you.
And scientists never had any "evidence that the earth was flat" or anything. It was a belief that everyone had at the time because there was no evidence that proved otherwise. Even the church of the time backed up the belief that the earth was flat. EVERYONE believed it because there was NO scientific evidence or exploration that disproved it.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jun 18, 2005 14:07:54 GMT -5
"exactly, scientists used to have evidence that the earth was flat... "
First I will clear this up. Scientists did not think the earth was flat. In fact, many scientist knew the earth wasn't flat, but if they wouldn't spoken out against the mass magority, they would've been beheaded quite quickly. It was the magor popultion that believed the earth was flat, not scientists.
I believe we go somewhere after we die. Whether it be heaven or reincarnation or some other place, I believe we don't just sit in the dark and rot in our graves. However, I do believe in evolution. There is so much proof around us of evolution. Yes, maybe God did create the earth, but what if he is still creating it? Maybe evolution is his doing, and the world is not yet finished? The bible says seven days, but how long is seven days in heaven?
I guess you could say I definitely believe in micro evolution. I do to some extent believe in macro evolution. I don't believe that humans evolved from apes, but I do believe that they evolved from a creature closely related to an ape form.
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Post by Trinity on Jun 18, 2005 14:15:36 GMT -5
To believe in evolution is to take something that is completely of the world and mix it with God's Word. Personally (and I am I no way trying to be judgemental, so please don't be mad), I don't think it's right to mix the two. Yeah, things do change genetically (look at dog breeds), but the main make - up is still there that God made in the beginning.
And believe me, I have seen Lucy, and personally it does NOTHING to convince me that we are connected in any way. I don't quite remember what it was they found, but to me it is not sufficient evidence that we had a primate as an ancestor.
And I'm going to stop right there....
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Post by Skye Muad'Dib on Jun 18, 2005 14:28:09 GMT -5
Why would God need to create Evolution to create animals? It doesn't make sense. If he could create the earth, why wouldn't he just have created animals?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jun 18, 2005 14:34:44 GMT -5
"I don't quite remember what it was they found, but to me it is not sufficient evidence that we had a primate as an ancestor. "
Lucy had the same genetic base pairs and gene patterns as humans have. That specimen was related to humans in some way. Gene patterns are different in all species. The only way they could be the same is if both specimens were of the same species.
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Post by Jareth on Jun 18, 2005 17:42:37 GMT -5
Wow... Sorry, mate, but that's not the least bit true. And that's not just my opinion, that's a fact. There are TONS of people that believe in both evolution and creation. Evolution has nothing to do with life after death or whether or not there is a God. NOTHING. Evolution deals only with species changing over time. Nothing more. You don't have to agree with evolution, but don't tell me that those of us that believe in it cannot possibly be Christians. To tell me that I'm not a Christian just because I take scientific proof into consideration is the highest insult you could give me. I believe God created life. I believe in heaven and hell. I also happen to believe that species evolve over time. So obviously, I can, and do, mix evolution and creation, thank you. you have your right to opinion, but why didn't they put the 'evolving' of humans in the Bible? you said you had proof, what proof do you have?
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Post by Jareth on Jun 18, 2005 17:45:36 GMT -5
sorry about the double post. Why would God need to create Evolution to create animals? It doesn't make sense. If he could create the earth, why wouldn't he just have created animals? exactly, if you believe God is all powerful, why can't you see that He doesn't need evolution and mutation to make things the way they are? besides, the earth hasn't been around for billions and billions of years as evolutionists believe.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jun 18, 2005 19:21:25 GMT -5
You say that like they are different things, Kaiya...
Okay, Silver. What if the bones don't actually fit together, or fit differently than they seem to? It wouldn't be the first time such a mistake has been made....
The biggest deal with man evolving is that it contradicts Genesis. If you believe in evolution, then you have to throw out Genesis. I'm not willing to do that for the hypothesis [read "guess"] of scientists. Anyone willing to do that will have a hard time convincing me of the reality of their faith.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jun 18, 2005 20:11:40 GMT -5
"Okay, Silver. What if the bones don't actually fit together, or fit differently than they seem to? It wouldn't be the first time such a mistake has been made...."
So your saying that maybe there was this dead being and then another dead being that was really a human just happened to fall right beside it?
When bones likes this are tested for DNA and other stuff like that, they test all the bones. Maybe the bones don't fit together like we speculate, but the DNA and genetic evidence doesn't lie.
And what about Otzi, the Tyrolean Iceman? He was found as a mummy, frozen in the snow. This was an example of a neolithic human. He was found intact, hair, skin, bones...just about everything was still there. You cannot argue with evidence like this. This was an ancient human and he was found with his weapons and tools lying near by. This was a being that Humans evolved from. Again, DNA testing and genetic testing was done on this being and everything matches up.
How can you say humans, animals, and even plants haven't evolved? Lemurs for example, used to be all the same. When the Pangea broke apart, the lemurs were marooned on a different continent and they mutated. They mutated and evolved until they were many many different subspecies. This must be true for humans as well. If you look at all the different nationalities, you see that we are all the same: human. However, you see that we are each a different type of subspecies. Subspecies had to have originated from one species. If this wasn't true, each different human from a different country would be a different species all together.
You can see that humans are adapted for the place they live. Africans are dark skinned because of the blaring sun and heat in africa. The eskimo people were thick skinned to be able to face the snow and freezing temperatures. These are caused by mutations...otherwise known as evolution.
The world is evolving even as we speak now. No one can sit there and say evolution doesn't exist at all with the evidence right in your face.Evolution does exist to some extent. Whether you believe in the creation theory or the evolution theory, evolution DOES exist, even on smaller scales. I can give you tons of examples of this if you so please...
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Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaiya on Jun 18, 2005 21:05:48 GMT -5
Why didn't they put a lot of things in the Bible? Does the Bible list every single step of humanity on every single continent? In fact, does the Bible even have events outside of the middle east? Primitive humans didn't even know about single-celled organisms, let alone evolving from such creatures, so why would they put these things in the Bible? Why didn't God tell them about cells or atoms or anything that make up everything that He created? Just because something isn't in the Bible, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. And as for proof, I believe both Silver and I have given you plenty of examples, but as Silver said, we can give you more if you would like.
If God is all powerful, then He can choose any method He wants over any length of time He wants. None of us understands God's motives or ways of thinking. To say that we fully understand everything that God does and knows is ridiculous. Why did God create Satan if he knew that Satan would fall? Why is God going to destroy the earth that he created? Why did God create bacteria and viruses that constantly attack us for seemingly no reason? Why did God let hundreds of innocent animals die in the flood? Why does God do anything that he does? We can speculate and guess, but none of us can claim to know God's intentions because He is above human understanding. So God can do anything He wants. I'm not going to claim to know why. And as for how long the earth has been around, no one knows. But I do believe that it has existed for quite a long time, far longer than just a few thousand years.
Aren't they? Faith is to believe without proof. That is why we do not test God or demand absolute proof of everything we believe. We don't need to see Jesus Christ with our own eyes to believe in him and follow him. We don't need to see God perform a grand and seemingly impossible miracle just to believe that he is capable of doing so. Fact, on the other hand, is actual proof that something is true. Something that no one can deny or contest. Lucy existed. That's a fact. Dinosaurs existed. That's a fact. We are made of cells. That's a fact. We can see these things, study these things, reach out and touch these things if we so choose. We can't find anything that proves these things to be wrong.
I don't "throw out Genesis" as you say. Are there some things that conflict? Yes, but these things are minor enough to me to make little difference. I still read Genesis, I still think about the meanings and lessons in Genesis, but I'm also not going to ignore something else just because it conflicts with Genesis in some areas.
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