|
Post by Ali Blue on Jul 28, 2005 22:08:34 GMT -5
lol, I'd probably rather talk about the X-Files too.... DON'T ASK ME WHY I'M HERE!!! *runs out*
|
|
|
Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jul 29, 2005 8:38:42 GMT -5
Yay! Hi-Five!
~Now back to your regularly scheduled program~
|
|
|
Post by eoloth on Jul 29, 2005 17:44:04 GMT -5
I don't agree with those statements, almost completely because you don't give any references to actual scripture or recordings. Where does it say that Mary had no sin in the Bible? I'm not saying it doesn't, but I'd like to read it, and not just take it for granted. Also, the Catholic church seems to have a lack of freedom. In my church, we do what the Lord tells us to do, although we fall back on the basic service when nothing needs to be changed. Where the spirit of the lord is, there is freedom. First I will attempt to answer your first question, CR. And I realize that likely it will be somewhat confusing to you simply because the Bible is not so outward as to say "Mary never had any sin whatsoever." But it does say a few things. Luke, 1:28. "And coming to her [Mary], he [the angel Gabriel] said, 'Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.'" She is favored by God, and in a sense predestined to be the Mother of God. I believe God would try to give the best place to His Son to be born in. And so He prepared Mary to receive Jesus into her body and soul, by freeing her from all sin. Mary herself says in Luke 1:46 and 48, "'My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord'" (Luke 1:48ff.) "'behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.'" How many people have the strength to say that God's greatness is proclaimed by their souls, unless they knew it? One must have a good deal of faith. And Mary did. Not only that, but a miracle took place inside her body. Like at the Red Sea, when God parted it to let the Israelites pass through to safety, many people flock to that place, because it is holy, like Mt. Sinai, where God came down and spoke with man. Mt. Sinai is holy. How much more so would Mary be holy because not only did a messenger of God speak to her, but GOD HIMSELF dwelt within her for nine months. She was made holy because of this. Even before Jesus was conceived, at Mary's birth, God created her holy and sinless, knowing that she was going to be the mother of God. And then you talk about freedom. So I'll clear this up too. Mary also had free will. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if she had said 'no' to God, told the angel that she wasn't willing to be the mother of God. Things would be different. God would have to prepare someone else...or perhaps leave the world enslaved in sin. But He didn't and she didn't. He knew she would say yes, because He knows all our deeds before we do them. Yet He gave her a choice. He showed His love for her by letting her participate in the Redemption of her own will and accord. For He is a loving GOd and doesn't force us to do anything. Now, think of this, CR. What is your definition of freedom? Do you mean doing anything one wants as long as we think it's God's will? How do you know it's God's will?By talking with Him, interacting with Him. How do you do that? Prayer. What's the highest form of prayer? Adoration. How and where can we adore Christ? In the Mass, the Eucharist, the Monstrance. Again, We get to Heaven, and experience freedom when we follow Jesus, right? And how do we know how to follow Jesus? the Scriptures. The Scriptures tell us what Jesus did. Yes, but they didn't tell us everything Jesus did. Scripture itself says, "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." (John 21:25) So if the Bible doesn't even tell us everything about how Jesus lived, what are we to rely on? The Church and its tradition. The Bible itself tells us to also rely on tradition. "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." (1 Thess. 2:15) I'd say true freedom is knowing, loving, and serving God. And I believe the only way we can get the fulness of that freedom is to live in the teachings of the Catholic Church. I mean, I think God is a little bit more flexable than just Christians go to heaven, everybody else goes to hell, I'm pretty sure theres middle ground. Everybody sins, its going to happen if you have free will, the only way you could not have sin is if you have no free will and do only what God wants down to the last detail. The middle ground only comes in after death. It's called Purgatory. The good thing about Purgatory is that one in Purgatory is bound for Heaven. The bad thing in Purgatory is the pain of not being with God yet. An analogy for Purgatory is a hospital. You experience pain, but you know your bound to get better. Your medicine doesn't taste that great, but there's good beyond it. You can just hardly wait to get to the good beyond it, your so anxious to get to the good that it hurts. Everyone sins, yes. Everyone sins of their own free will. SIn is a choice, not something that happens to you. If it wasn't a choice, then everyone would still be living in perfect bliss in the garden of Eden. Eve made the choice to eat the fruit. We make a choice to steal the brownie, to hit our brother, to swear at another. That doesn't just happen to be our evil twin residing in us. Also, if you didn't have choice in the matter of sinning, then your conscience would not let you feel shameful or remorseful because it wouldn't be your fault...you didn't choose to sin. And you wouldn't have to ask for forgiveness because you didn't do anything, the sin just sort of "happened" to you, while you were doing nothing and were caught off guard. Mary had free will, as I already explained and she did do God's will, even without sinning. It's possible. Anything is possible with God. I have been able to resist temptations before, and I know I can still resist temptations. God is way more powerful than the devil. there can't be a middle ground. everyone sins, and it's those who recognize their sin and repent of it that go to heaven. it would be great if we could all go to heaven, but God can't stand sin, literally, he cannot lay his eyes upon it. but if you repent, then Jesus' blood covers it. A misunderstanding, and a misconception that most people and most Protestants have. Getting to Heaven doesn't just consist of repenting of your sins. It means taking active work in following God's will. It's one thing to say "God I'm sorry for my sins, I know I have done wrong" and it's quite another to say "God I'm sorry for my sins, I know I have done wrong and I ask you to forgive me. I will try not to sin anymore and I ask your help that I may not sin anymore." See the difference? The second person is actively seeking to do GOd's will and to stop sinnning in the future. Jesus Himself says, "Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven." (Matthew 7:21) So also did James rightly say, "So also, faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead." (James 3:17. Most Protestant Bibles have emitted James from their books because of this verse. Because James is too Catholic.) I already explained about the middle ground. Hope that clears some things up. Remember I am really trying to do this lovingly and caringly. I am simply trying to inform you of the truth. Because we all seek the truth and the truth will set you free. I truly care about your welfare. Hope you understand. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Caffeinerush on Jul 29, 2005 18:16:30 GMT -5
By freedom, I mean doing things that you normally wouldn't do. In church, or in life. Has there ever been a time your church has strayed from the original service to do something spontaneous, like host a supper for people (I know this might not be possible due to the size of some churches), or switched around the events, and their order? Its quite a sad thing to see some churches bound to their classic service, ignoring the reason behind it.
I'm not sure if there is a highest form of prayer, but I do agree God loves to be loved back. Just by praying, and not acting, your prayers and time with God can be useless.(aside from the great sence of love and motivation he gives you).
Still not quite sure about that Mary being completely pure thing, although what you say does make sence. I'll have to do some studying in that myself.
I don't know much about this "Purgatory" state. Is it saying that some people, if they are "good" but have not accepted Christ, go to heaven eventually? Or is it the Christians that havn't been faithfull? I'd like to know.
Ditto to your last statement.
|
|
|
Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jul 29, 2005 22:01:37 GMT -5
First of all, I'd like to express my immense pleasure in finding that Silver not only believes that there is a God, but believes that there are certain, set ways of worshiping and serving Him. It seems we've made some progress in that area! ; )
I thought you were going to prove from the Scriptures. We know what you believe.
This is not only impossible, but a logical fallacy. God does not "have" to do anything. If He did, if our decisions controlled Him in any way, then He could not be God. It is not consistent with the definition of God as omnipotent. You do believe that God is omnipotent, don't you?
Every true Christian. With humility, knowing that nothing we have done, or ever could do, has made this possible. God works a miracle of transformation in each one of us. Without it, no one could be saved.
Says what Scripture? I know everyone thinks I'm a Bible-thumper. Believe me, you haven't met one. But my basis IS the Scriptures, and if you can't prove your beliefs from there, you have no leg to stand on.
Again...where do you find this in Scripture?
How is this possible? If Mary were perfect, then she would have no need of a Saviour. The Bible says that all have sinned, and fall short. All. Everyone. No one excepted: not Mary, not a "Saint" who achieves a special status above other Christians. No one.
Ouch. Too true! We can be sorry for sins all we want, but if God doesn't work in our hearts then we will never truly repent and believe, putting all our life in His hands.
But don't you remember? There is no "truth"! It's all relative: it's only what you believe and what I believe, neither right nor wrong. None of this really matters!!! At least...that's what you told me.
CR -
Where've you been for our other discussions, friend?!? Right on. ; )
|
|
|
Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jul 30, 2005 8:39:38 GMT -5
"First of all, I'd like to express my immense pleasure in finding that Silver not only believes that there is a God, but believes that there are certain, set ways of worshiping and serving Him. It seems we've made some progress in that area! ; )"
Where did that come from? Er, that was random. Yeah I believe there is a God, but I can't even remember the last time I went to church for a holiday. The last time I went was for my brothers conformation, but I don't so much agree with church. I agree with praying. Even if no one is really listening, it helps a great deal mentally to know that someone is up there. I'm technically Catholic. I mean, I only went to Catholic Sunday school for 12 years. My family is Catholic and they have been Catholics for generations and generations, ever since my spanish ancestors came over from Spain and my dad's ancestors came over from Scotland and Ireland. I'm unorthodox *shrugs* There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, you guys said it yourself...Change is good.
Mwahahah!! Ok, I'm done.
The truth is out there, dudes. The truth is out there....
|
|
|
Post by Caffeinerush on Aug 1, 2005 8:48:04 GMT -5
"The truth is out there, dudes. The truth is out there.... " But its so contrevertial. Grrrr...
|
|
|
Post by Joan Omnipresent on Aug 1, 2005 8:59:02 GMT -5
Oh. Optimistic agnostic...see, you never told me that! ; )
I'll go all out and seem conceited beyond imagination: I have the truth, folks! PM me if you wanna hear it. I'm headed out of this religion board...religion? That's just a word. I have the truth.
Pizza! ~Joan~
|
|
|
Post by Ali Blue on Aug 6, 2005 21:30:24 GMT -5
A misunderstanding, and a misconception that most people and most Protestants have. Getting to Heaven doesn't just consist of repenting of your sins. It means taking active work in following God's will. It's one thing to say "God I'm sorry for my sins, I know I have done wrong" and it's quite another to say "God I'm sorry for my sins, I know I have done wrong and I ask you to forgive me. I will try not to sin anymore and I ask your help that I may not sin anymore." See the difference? The second person is actively seeking to do GOd's will and to stop sinnning in the future. Jesus Himself says, "Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven." (Matthew 7:21) So also did James rightly say, "So also, faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead." (James 3:17. Most Protestant Bibles have emitted James from their books because of this verse. Because James is too Catholic.) ok: if you just say you're sorry for your sins, and then you keep sinning, it's not being sorry. it doesn't really matter what the heck you say, it's just what your heart says. and about Purgatory. show me a verse in the Bible where it says exactly that there's a place between heaven and hell.
|
|
|
Post by SilverSergyon13 on Aug 7, 2005 20:47:35 GMT -5
"I have the truth."
Mulder would be so proud.
|
|
|
Post by eoloth on Aug 14, 2005 17:50:42 GMT -5
You do believe that God is omnipotent, don't you? Yes, I believe God is omnipotent. I was simply wondering what it would be like if Mary had said no to what God had asked of her. "How and where can we adore Christ? in the Mass, the Eucharist, the Monstrance." Says what Scripture? I know everyone thinks I'm a Bible-thumper. Believe me, you haven't met one. But my basis IS the Scriptures, and if you can't prove your beliefs from there, you have no leg to stand on. Ok, you are telling me that if it isn't in Scripture, you won't believe it. Well, you believe in the Trinity, the Triune God, yes? There is no place in Scripture that the Trinity is specifically mentioned. You won't ever find the word 'trinity' in Scripture. The Church was established before the Scriptures were written, so the Scriptures are Church-based. There's also an oral tradition. Our Jewish heritage had a written word, the Torah, and an oral tradition, called the Mishnah, and these together made up the Talmud, the complete teaching of the Jewish faith. The early Church had the same written and oral traditions. First, starting orally, and the final canon of the New Testament was settled between 390 and 410 a.d. If you are accepting the complete New Testament then you are accepting the authority of the Catholic Church that assembled and copied those texts throughout the centuries. Regarding your question as to where we can find the adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and the Eucharist in Sacred Scripture, first we need to cover a little history. Bear with me here. The Jewish culture had several offerings they made to God: burnt offering, blood offering, a meal offering, and peace offering, possibly among others. There were two forms of the peace offering. First was a free will offering done at any time to honor God, the second was called the Todah sacrifice and was offered in thanksgiving for deliverance from some trial. For example, during battle, one might say "God, if you get me out of this, I will do such-and-such..." The Todah sacrifice involved the use of bread, wine, and a lamb that was sacrificed. The person making the offering would gather their family and close friends and make bread ahead of time. A lamb was then brought to the temple where the high priest would sacrifice the lamb. At the very moment of sacrifice the bread would also be consecrated. The lamb would be brought home and prepared, and then the person offering the sacrifice would retell his story of deliverance from peril or harm etc., and how God brough them through it. This sacrifice also involved a dedication of the person's life for God as well as his family. A little sidenote here: the Passover is a corporate form of the Todah sacrifice, as well as the Last Supper offered by Jesus Christ. Please go to 1 Chronicles 16. In verse 3, when David finished blessing the people, he distributed to every Israelite a loaf of bread, a piece of meat (most likely lamb), and alot of translations say raisin cakes, but this is a bad translation, a better one is read 'flagons of wine'. In verse 4, he (David) appoints certain Levites to minister before the Ark of the Lord, to celebrate, thank, and praise before the Lord God of Israel. Not found in this passage is the fact that he divided the priests into two groups, one for the day shift and one for the night shift. In verse 6, it says "the priests were to blow the trumpets continually, (a better translation of the word 'continually' would be perpetually) before the Ark of the Covenant of God." What did the Ark contain? The Ten Commandments, the manna (or bread) from heaven, and the rod of Aaron (which signifies the authority of the priesthood). In verses 8 through 36 David recounts his story which is part of the Todah sacrifice. Todah means praise and thanksgiving. What David was doing was preparing Israel for the Last Supper, the sacrifice of Jesus, the consumption of Jesus' Body and Blood (see John 6), and the perpetual worship or adoration of Jesus present in the Holy Eucharist. In the ancient Mishnah, the oral tradition of the Jews, it was taught that in the Messianic age all sacrifices would cease EXCEPT the Todah sacrifice. This would be offered throughout ALL eternity. In the Catholic Church, during the Mass, we say during the Eucharistic prayers "It is right to give Him (God) thanks and praise." The Mass is the continued Todah sacrifice which will be offered on earth until the end, and in heaven for eternity. "The middle ground only comes in after death. It is called Puragatory" Again...where do you find this in Scripture? If your Bible has the Deuterocanonical books look in 1 and 2 Maccabees. In there they make reference to prayers for the dead. One specific reference is 2 Maccabees 12:45-46, "But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin." Many Protestants believe that Jesus' death 'covers' our stains of sinfulness. This, however is not the same belief as that of the Catholic Church. Here's an analogy. Mom and dad send their kid off to play...and he's all clean. Plays in the playground and gets rather muddy. When the kid comes home, mom and dad clean him up (as in a bath) before he eats his dinner. Now, if the kid comes home and just changes his clothes before his parents realize it and waltzes off to dinner thinking he's clean, his parents will still smell his dirtiness underneath and will send him off to be clean inside and outside. This is like God and us. We need to be cleansed inside and outside. 1 Corinthians 3:15 says "But if soneone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, BUT ONLY AS THROUGH FIRE." (my emphasis) Rev. 21:27 says that nothing will enter the kingdom of heaven that is at all unclean. Matthew 5:48 says "So be perfect just as your heavenly father is perfect." I have many more, but I have to get off now. I will be back to answer more of your questions. see ya!
|
|
|
Post by Trinity on Aug 16, 2005 12:25:10 GMT -5
It is true that you won't find the word 'trinity' in the Bible, but the concept of God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit being one is in there. It's like the word 'rapture'. You won't find that word in the Bible, but the concept is definitely there.
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
I just wantd to point that one out. Carry on!
|
|
|
Post by Caffeinerush on Aug 16, 2005 12:40:09 GMT -5
"If your Bible has the Deuterocanonical books look in 1 and 2 Maccabees. In there they make reference to prayers for the dead. One specific reference is 2 Maccabees 12:45-46, "But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.""
That may be written in that book, but I'm at loss of it. It isn't included in the King James, NIV, and any bibles we have in our house. Does anyone have information on why these books got cut out, or rather why they were not added?
I have a feeling this "purgatory" belief is in those books added to the catholic bible. Is this the case?
|
|
|
Post by Jandalf on Toast on Aug 16, 2005 15:46:49 GMT -5
Okay...time to think back to my Mennonite Studies course. (grins) Where we studied a lot more than Mennonites. Went into a whirlwind tour of the church's history.
The New Testament was put together by a conference of priests/bishops/what have you in the year 397 Anno Domini. Let's see if Jandalf can remember the four criteria that a book had to have to make it into the Bible:
1. Apostolic origins, meaning written by an apostle or one directly connected.
2. Universal acceptance by the Christian church. Which, at that time, was solely Roman Catholic, known as just "the church" without all these separate denominations.
3. Liturgical use, meaning the book was in use within the church already.
4. Consistent message throughout the books put together.
It may be argued that there are books of the Bible that should not be included as the Word (there has been large amounts of controversy over the use of books like Hebrews, I and II Peter, I, II and III John, Jude, and most especially Revelations — but this can be taken into perspective as many of these books dealt with countering false teachings, because while some priests taught with a pure heart, I'm certain, there would also have been a number of corrupt priests interested in keeping their power), and conversely that there have been vital books left out of the most commonly accepted Bible, such as the Maccabees.
However. I view this to be similar to the writing of the books themselves. It is God's Word, written out by him through man, which makes some think that the Bible can't be perfect, since man is imperfect by nature. That said, I also believe God is omnipotent, and that there is no question that he would have had the ability to ensure that the writing of the books went as he intended. Similarly, I think there is no question he would have been able to oversee the collaboration of the Bible, to ensure that what he wants in there is there, and what he doesn't want is excluded. I've decided to have faith in the book that those priests put together, whether some were serving God's purposes or their own, because things can and often do work out, even in the most unthinkable ways, to further his will.
I think it's important for any and every denomination of Christian, really, to look back into the history of their denomination and see why their faith is like it is. It makes us understand more completely what we believe, and makes us that much stronger in our faith.
EDIT: Oh, look at that. Verse of the day:
Since we have these promises...
|
|
|
Post by eoloth on Aug 16, 2005 17:53:54 GMT -5
That may be written in that book, but I'm at loss of it. It isn't included in the King James, NIV, and any bibles we have in our house. Does anyone have information on why these books got cut out, or rather why they were not added? I have a feeling this "purgatory"; belief is in those books added to the catholic bible. Is this the case? "added" isn't the right word. "left out" is. These books are purposely taken out of the St. James version because they are Catholic. I can't tell you more right now, but I'll try to offer some explanation later. Way to go Shadow! Say, are you Catholic?
|
|
|
Post by Jandalf on Toast on Aug 16, 2005 19:11:44 GMT -5
Jandalf, actually. This alias thing is rather funsy. But yes, for the time being, they can all call me Shandalf...hmm...perhaps that's what I'll change my name to next. Oh, and I'm also CR's sister. Heh.
No, I'm not Catholic. I suppose you could call me Protestant; I'm non-denominational, but our church is more similar to Protestant congregations than Catholic ones. I go to a Vineyard church, you see...we focus on the concept of the kingdom of God, more so than most other churches, I've observed.
|
|
|
Post by eoloth on Aug 21, 2005 19:12:00 GMT -5
Well, that's cool too. It's not every day you find a Protestant who know Church history like that.
Your CR's sister!!coolio! Say, I never got either of your ages. How old are both of you? (that is, if its ok to ask!)
|
|
|
Post by Jandalf on Toast on Aug 21, 2005 19:20:51 GMT -5
I agree, and I think 'tis a crying shame.
Heh...I'm eighteen, and CR is fifteen. Even though my age here is listed as 105. Heh heh. I couldn't resist.
|
|
|
Post by Tiana, eh? on Aug 22, 2005 1:41:01 GMT -5
1) No flaming
2) Stay on target...
Now that that's over, carry on...
Anyway...
I don't really have much of a strong belief in denominations. I suppose I should express that now, just in case I get up into this debate for any length... I believe that Christianity is the belief and acceptance of Christ as one's Savior, who came and died on the cross for one's sins. That's what I believe. I have absolutely no denominational dicrimination. I don't think they should have to exist, in all honesty, but for a human need to say, "Well, that's not right, this is..." and argue about it and not come to a conclusion and split up...
But yes... so in all technicallity, I cannot set a denomination to myself. CSSM, I suppose, or Protestant. (shrugs) It's close enough. Now, to follow in on this debate, without hopefully flaming or hurting anyone's feelings...
Purgetory. I do not believe in this for one reason. God's already given us a second chance of a sort (if your beliefs follow along mine) by sending his son to be born of Mary and so on and so forth. He's already giving us a ton of chances by forgiving us for our obvious imperfections. Nowhere in my Bible does it state a place in between heaven and hell. And I think that were there such a place, it would've been mentioned in more than just the other books that appear in the Catholic Bible. Narrator part of me says that's just a bit too convenient.
Now, mind you, I don't know everything. But I'm assuming it's in there or else all you Catholic denominational people wouldn't talk about it, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing in what I've read in my typical-make Bible about a middle place. And I should know. (grimaces) I read a forth of the Bible over the last two months... wow, that was hard on the head...
But yeah...
I've heard that the books in the Catholic Bible that aren't in the NJK Bible are more folklore-church history-whatever rather than written by apostles, and that's why they're not in the NKJ. Is this fact?
I'm going to say now that I think the books were "added" rather than "left out". But there's no extensive research behind that... just it seems to me that something doesn't quite add up between the two different Bibles. But, again, I have no research in this area, do not flame me for my opinion... heck... don't flame anyone! That's the rule for debates...
And if I may... debates aren't exactly a place for personal conversation. It's fine if you want to do a bit, but keep your posts at least SOMEWHAT on topic!! Er... and don't lie about your age either... I really, REALLY do not want MEI to be deleted, and I know you don't think much about TOS type stuff, Master-dearie, but I DO! And you're an admin... staff member... and could get my site deleted for that, I think...
I know 105 was all in fun, but... er...
Okay, I'm done. For now. No one listens to me anyway.
|
|
|
Post by eoloth on Jan 21, 2006 16:59:19 GMT -5
Purgetory. I do not believe in this for one reason. God's already given us a second chance of a sort (if your beliefs follow along mine) by sending his son to be born of Mary and so on and so forth. He's already giving us a ton of chances by forgiving us for our obvious imperfections. Nowhere in my Bible does it state a place in between heaven and hell. And I think that were there such a place, it would've been mentioned in more than just the other books that appear in the Catholic Bible. Narrator part of me says that's just a bit too convenient. Now, mind you, I don't know everything. But I'm assuming it's in there or else all you Catholic denominational people wouldn't talk about it, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing in what I've read in my typical-make Bible about a middle place. And I should know. (grimaces) I read a forth of the Bible over the last two months... wow, that was hard on the head... Well, it isn't explicit, but there are other places that refer to or make the suggestion of Purgatory. I'll give you them here and now. Wait...I have to go...so I'll give 'em to you the next time I'm on...ok?
|
|