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Post by Barnzo on Mar 29, 2006 17:06:04 GMT -5
That is very true, but it does not mean that purgatory does not exist.
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Post by Kiranitha Lei Aena on Mar 29, 2006 17:36:29 GMT -5
wow, this is soo much...i don't have time right now to post my verses...but i really want to push on to Marian doctrine, as well as other catholic stuff...Purgatory is SOO controversial...honestly, we'll all just have to wait until after death to see who is right and who is wrong...believe what you want, there's a purgatory, and because hopefully most of you have been baptized, and are striving for God's salvation, then we'll only go through Purgatory and not Hell...but that's what prayer is for... Say, just a thought... if you all think that Jesus died for our sins, and that we don't have to take the punishment for them...what gives you any motivation for continuing to try and lead holy lives....Catholics at least have something that moves them...they want to lead holy lives to attain heaven...but if you all think your going to heaven anyway...what's your motivation?
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Post by Ali Blue on Mar 29, 2006 18:46:14 GMT -5
now.. this is gonna sound kind of weird, but for lack of a better word, we become slaves to God after we repent of our sins and accept Jesus. The reason we bring Jesus into our hearts is so He can clean out all the sin and icky stuff. He can't do that unless we follow His will. When you serve God, it shouldn't be just because you want to get to Heaven, but because you love God like your father, and because you want to save other people from Spiritual death. It shouldn't be like in Boyscouts where you do stuff to get your golden bars and pins, but because you want to do it. Our motivation is God's fire in our hearts. The burning desire to be the exact image of Him. And I have to tell you: at the end of the day, I can't wait to talk to God, or to talk with you guys about Him. I want to be like God because of the way the Holy Spirit motivates my heart.
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Post by Trinity on Mar 29, 2006 19:07:10 GMT -5
I agree on the Purgatory thing to an extent in that we will definitly be finding out after we die...
I also agree with Alistair. When you accept Christ into your life, He changes you and you become a bondservant to Christ. Look at Paul in the Bible. He was on his way to persecute Chrisitians to their deaths when Jesus blinded him on the road. After he was saved, he was an on-fire Christian who served God with his whole heart until the day he was martyred for Christ. God makes the change when we invite Him into our hearts. He IS our motivation.
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Post by Morgana Le Fay on Mar 30, 2006 9:13:33 GMT -5
Heh, thanks, Silver. I agree with you too - a preist I met joked that 'Catholics don't read the Bible because that's a very Prodestant thing to do" I like the symbolism and the metaphors, the only bad part is you get everyone arguing over what means what...
Ok. I agree with me new friend Barney Jenkins on the purgatory bit, just like Trinity.
I think this thread really shows the differences between the faiths... and I also think that Barney is right in wanting a little less arguing. It gets hard when you have to defend what you believe every time when sometimes people can't understand, and you sometimes can't understand them. So can we ease it up just a hair and have everyone at least try to understand? I don't want the newest members who are so adamantly and bravely defending themselves to run off...
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Post by Trinity not logged on Mar 30, 2006 10:31:15 GMT -5
I agree with Commander (wow, everyone agreeing with everyone!). I don't want this thread to turn out like others we have had on this board, so... we can introduce a new topic if you all want to, or we can ease up (I include myself in this because I know from past experience how hot-headed I can get) and continue with this discussion.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Mar 30, 2006 15:37:04 GMT -5
Hey, remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross? "THIS DAY you will be with me in Paradise." <<no purgatory>>
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Post by Barnzo on Mar 30, 2006 17:23:16 GMT -5
Well, modest sith (if that is what you want me to call you), there is no time in the life after this. One day on earth could be a trillion years in heaven... or purgatory.
And, Commander, you are calling me your friend! AWESOME! *weeps in joy* You know what? I gotta go frolic in this wonderful moment!
*goes and frolics*
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Post by Padawan goober-shadowslayer on Mar 30, 2006 18:37:07 GMT -5
Yah Joan You do not know if the thief went to Heaven or hell. The time in Heaven is different then here in our world. And Jesus forgave the man from his sins. The thief said that he was sorry for his sins in a manor that he did not use his words. He repented. And he was Baptized in blood, that is one of the three ways to Baptize, in blood, water, or if you will it. I think that there is a purgatory. I am VERY sure.
It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Mar 30, 2006 18:44:44 GMT -5
LoL! I do know the thief went to heaven, because Jesus says he did. AND Jesus said that while He was a man, on earth, in earth time, to comfort someone. Read the passage and see. What kind of comfort is it to say, "this day you will be with me in purgatory for an unknown period of time?" That's just silly.
As for there being no time in heaven...that's not true either. ((but we can discuss that some other time))
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Post by Ali Blue on Mar 30, 2006 20:28:22 GMT -5
I looked up Romans 5:3-5 and what it actually says is that we should rejoice in our sufferings because it produces perseverance, not purity. but you're right, suffering does bring us closer to God, but not because it takes away our sins, but because every earthly thing that we had to support us is gone, and that is when you realize, only God can save you now. And through that, you gain a deeper faith and wisdom. (believe me, folks.. this ain't no bull *has been watching too many car commercials*) as for the Purgatory part.. I'm gonna do a couple references for now... I'll post some this weekend.
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Post by Absolon on Mar 30, 2006 20:56:41 GMT -5
Even if we don't confess our sins, Christ payed for them, so we don't have to go anywhere like purgatory. When Christ suffered on the cross, it wasn't just the physical stuff. Being separated from God, his Father so completely must have been excruciating, then to have shoulder every evil and terrible thing that every has and will happen. When I do wrong things, I am wracked with guilt, imagine doing that millions and millions of times over.
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Post by Barnzo on Mar 31, 2006 12:55:23 GMT -5
Some of you guys completely ignore what we say. (No offense. Some of you, actually, all of you, are really nice) But you just kinda take some of what we say and just throw in another thing, trying to take our minds off of what we said before. It's called a red herring, and it is a Fallacy (trust me, I take Logic in school). But anyways, you guys are still nice. So don't ignore this:
MT 12:32: "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age OR IN THE AGE TO COME." Jesus is saying that SOME SINS CAN BE FORGIVEN IN THE NEXT WORLD. Sin can not be forgiven in Hell. There is no sin to be forgiven in heaven. Any forgiving of sin in the next world can only be occur in Purgatory.
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Post by Ali Blue on Mar 31, 2006 17:33:35 GMT -5
I'm thinking that this verse is probably about the 'second earth' that was talked about in Revelation 21. it says: Then I saw a new heeaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea, I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. That must be what He wast talking about.
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Post by Barnzo on Mar 31, 2006 18:25:07 GMT -5
Thank you for not ignoring me. UR nice.
Like Commander said before, people all have their own ways that they interpret scripture, which is why it is very important to go by what the Church teaches.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Mar 31, 2006 19:27:51 GMT -5
What? Scripture can be interpreted different ways, therefore we should listen to what someone else tells us? And who's "the Church"? My church believes what I have described.
If I say "You have wronged me and I'll never forgive you. Not now, not ever." Does that mean that I was considering forgiving you in the future up until the point that I said "not ever"? Absolutely not! I said "not ever" for emphasis, so you'd get the point. Never, never, ever is the point. Don't you see that in Jesus' words?
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Post by Barnzo on Apr 1, 2006 15:56:49 GMT -5
Is your point to try to confuse me? 'Cause it is working. lol. Well, I am reading this on April Fool's day, so the word "the" looks like OOBA all the time! *is getting confused even more*
I always seem to confuse MYSELF! lol
But, anyways, you asked who "The Church" is. The Church is the Catholic Church. And this brings up another topic! So here we go!
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Post by Ali Blue on Apr 1, 2006 23:06:32 GMT -5
"ooba Church is ooba Catholic Church" gah! *having trouble computing* (I must say, we're going through so many topics in so little time..) What I consider as th e church would not be anything organized by man, but th e body of Christ. As i t says in 1 Corinthians 12: 12-13 th e body is a unit, though i t is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So i t is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given th e one Spirit to drink. Th e pastor of our church is not any man, but God. He 'preaches' th e word to us in different ways in all our different lifestyles, no matter where we are, which denomination we are in, or whatever. ooba world sees us as Baptists, Catholics, and Presbatyrians (sp?), but only those who really know Christ, are aware that true Christians (Christians, not meaning protestants, but meaning people who follow Christ and no other) have no labels, we are simply th e ones who follow Christ. Now, from what I have seen, I don't think there will be much controversy over this, but I thought we should all just remember that since we believe in Christ, we are all on ooba same side, regardless about what we believe about certain interpretations. (I know some interpretations will render you totally wrong about ooba entire Bible, but those such as these, do not) God says th e church is to be united, and I just hope we won't take this thread in a direction that will seperate us.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Apr 1, 2006 23:45:40 GMT -5
Wouldn't that mean that christians should unite and get along with all other religions? Seeing as how many other religions believe in the same God and all believe in a church of some sort. -Jes Sayin'
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Post by Barnzo on Apr 2, 2006 9:50:49 GMT -5
Both of you, Fox Hunter and Ali, are correct. The body of Christ is the Church, but the first Christian Church, which all Protestant Churches split from, is the Catholic Church, which Jesus started. And yes, Fox Hunter, it would be very nice if everyone agreed on everything. That is why I wanted to bring up a topic that everyone, or most people, agreed on.
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