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Post by Padawan goober-shadowslayer on Apr 2, 2006 13:40:20 GMT -5
That would be nice, unfortunately many of us have different beliefs, thoughts, etc. Each and every religion is different in one way or the other. I just wish that we could all agree. *sighs*
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Apr 2, 2006 18:55:08 GMT -5
1) Jesus did not begin the Roman Catholic Church. What makes you say that? Jesus began the universal Church.
2) Christians are not called to unite with other religions. Then, we wouldn't be Christians! We must respect others, but not unite with them.
3) We don't believe in the same God as other religions.
4) Not everyone believes in a church of any sort, although everyone has a "religion", even if that religion is worshiping themselves.
5) The idea that the Roman Catholic Church can make determinations about the interpretation of Scripture for all of its members, and expect every member to agree just because the leadership says so is appalling. I hope it is not true.
6) I wish we could all agree, too...but I won't agree just to "get along" if it means compromising the truth...and neither should you.
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Post by Padawan goober-shadowslayer on Apr 2, 2006 20:28:09 GMT -5
For one thing we are not saying that we are called to unite religions. We just said that we wish that we would all believe in the same thing.
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Post by Ali Blue on Apr 3, 2006 1:21:11 GMT -5
I said something like that.. but I'm afraid it might've been misenterpreted. what I was saying is that although people go under different labels, and believe different things about sins, and a lot of other stuff, as long as you believe in a triune God, and that Jesus died for our sins and He's the only one that can save us from Hell, through grace, not punishment, then that makes you a Christian. And it's these people that are called to unite under God's banner. I agree that a lot of churches believe in Heaven, and Jesus, but every single other religion that I have seen relies on works, not grace to save your soul. and that is the difference between us and other religions. I agree with you Joan, that just because the leader of your church says something is true, you shouldn't believe it, you should test their ideas, see if it aligns with the Bible, they might be a very wise person, but that doesn't mean they can't misinterpret God's word.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Apr 3, 2006 11:56:35 GMT -5
Thanks, Ali! My apprentice has a great deal of common sense...and manages not to be confusing or offensive. Hmmmm...why aren't you teaching me? The Catholic Church also focuses on works as part of salvation...which is the most important reason I disagree with its teachings very strongly.
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Post by Padawan goober-shadowslayer on Apr 3, 2006 15:39:26 GMT -5
It says in the Bible that without works our faith is dead. Also, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). I could go on and on. We don't earn our salvation, it is a gift. However, we do need to do our part.
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Post by Trinity on Apr 3, 2006 16:57:40 GMT -5
Yes, faith without works is dead. I totally agree with that. What I disagree with is that salvation can be earned by works. Salvation comes by faith.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Apr 3, 2006 18:32:58 GMT -5
I have to strongly disagree on this. Yes, we were encouraged to do community service, but we were never told that that was the reason we'd be saved from Hell. I have a feeling what you think of the Catholic church is very different than what it actually is. In the years I went to the catholic church, I could never understand the differences between other christian religions and Catholicism. In fact, I still can't. They are all very similar and to me it almost seems that it's petty arguments that split the religions. Now I can't speak as if I know everything about your faith, nor can I claim I'm an expert in Catholicism, but I can say I've found very few major differences in any of these christian religions, yet protestants, methodists, baptists, ect. hold so much prejudice against the Catholic church and I never really found a reason why. In all the years I went through catholic schooling I never heard the other christians religions put down as wrong, yet most of my non-catholic friends are so quick to put it down.
Now if all these Christian religions are so similar and so easily categorized under the same name of "Christian", then why is everybody so separate?
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Apr 3, 2006 21:14:10 GMT -5
They aren't similar, and they aren't easily categorized, Silver...not when you really know them. Not when you really believe them. Not when you really have faith...it isn't the same. It is separated. It isn't simple. It isn't all the same...
But I know that no one here believes me...so if anyone really wants to talk about it, you can PM me.
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Post by Trinity on Apr 3, 2006 22:06:03 GMT -5
Not all Catholic churches teach this, but my mom grew up Catholic and it was all based upon works. You could work your way into heaven is what they taught basically. That is actually one of the differences between Catholicism and Christianity... And as for Christian denominations, some are very different. We have a friend who goes to a Methodist Church that I swear is Calvinistic, and Baptists are different too because my dad went to a Baptist church when he was younger and he has told me about it. I actually don't have a lot of experience in this area because the church I go to is nondenominational and I've never been to a denomination.
But yeah, most Catholic churches do teach that you can get into heaven if you do x amount of good things and say x amount of prayers, and my knowledge of that comes from my mom who experienced it for 18 years. There is abosolutely NOTHING wrong with doing good things, but they alone won't get you into heaven.
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Post by Morgana Le Fay on Apr 4, 2006 8:41:43 GMT -5
I've found that too, Silver. It's rather annoying when you're told you're wrong and I'm right because you're Catholic, therefore you have to be wrong because Catholisism is plain dead WRONG.
Ok, one note here: The works of faith and Acts of Charity are for us to HELP OTHER PEOPLE, not necessarily to save our souls. We're speading God's word and our love when we help others like Christ taught us to do. Honestly, I'm not trying to save my soul or buy my way into heaven - that's not guaranteed. I'm trying to help someone feel better, feel loved feel cared for, feel worth something. Like God wants everyone to feel. That's why I do community service, and all that other stuff, even just smiling at someone. I know how much it means to that person.
The thing about words being translated different ways - absolutely true. Every Bible has a different version of the words. Some of the underlying principles are the same. However, PEOPLE ARE HUMAN. We make mistaakes, we retranslate, we mistake meanings, we twist them to prove a point, we all have our own experiences that make us translate things different ways, everything, not just the Bible. Ok? Sorry if that's what you got so annoyed with, Joan. But it's what I believe, from experience, and I'll stand by it. I totally respect you standing by your beliefs as well.
Great examples of free will - different religions.
Is it just me or is it getting a little hot in here? What do you think, Trinity?
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Trinity unlogged darn it
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Post by Trinity unlogged darn it on Apr 4, 2006 9:43:27 GMT -5
*fans self* Yes, it is getting a bit toasty... *grabs huge Gatorade container full of ice and water and dumps it all over thread*. I know it's hard sometimes to keep these threads nice and neutral when we tend to get so high-strung (if that's the right word) over telling other's about our faiths. But this thread started off very well, and I would like us to get back to that feeling of just having nice conversation instead of this. It's not bad YET, but I think many of us have seen these threads turn ugly, and I really don't want this one to suffer the same fate. So, let's all of us, including myself, make a very conscious effort to remain a bit calmer. No one is trying to convert you from your religion/faith in here! We aren't trying to brainwash people! Yes, if given the opportunity, some will witnes for Christ, and I don't think that is wrong. But, you know... play nice! Think about how you would talk to someone on the street about this: you wouldn't get in their face and blast them. You would want to be mroe gentle and patient.
So, with all that said (and if I said something wrong, then feel free to tell me cuz I'm not perfect) let's continue the discussion.
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Post by Padawan goober-shadowslayer on Apr 4, 2006 15:43:29 GMT -5
It would be better to do works then to sit around and be lazy. We have faith also. But it is better to do something. That is what we Catholics believe.
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Post by Barnzo on Apr 4, 2006 15:56:13 GMT -5
You guys are right. You can not get to heaven by works alone. Works are not what lets us "earn" heaven. That is not what we believe. We believe that we need Faith AND works, both of them. Do you disagree with that?
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Post by Ali Blue on Apr 4, 2006 21:05:50 GMT -5
Well, we believe that in a sense.. I wouldn't say that we need faith along with works to get to heaven, there's a very fine line here.. If we could be perfect, then we definitely would need works to get to Heaven, but all of our positive deeds can never cross out all our negative deeds. But since we're not perfect, we put our faith in Jesus. This is where works come in, although we are already saved, we still show our faith in Christ through our works, and yes they make us personally closer to God, but they do nothing to aid our journey to Heaven. That ticket is already paid for, I kind of see works as extra credit work.. if that helps any
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Apr 4, 2006 21:34:26 GMT -5
In CCD, we were taught that we should live as Christ lived. I'm not sure how any of you came to the conclusion that Catholics base entrance into heaven and hell solely on acts and service, but in all the years I've grown up in an entirely Catholic family, I have never heard this. I do agree with Barney though. True belief requires both faith and acts. You can't just sit around on your butt and say "I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, so I'm definitely going to heaven." Would you really feel assured by doing this? No, most people need to do things to make them feel better inside. I think doing kinds things for others gives people a sense of hope and gives them power to believe in their faith. I'm not speaking of just christians either.
I've been to quite a few Catholic churches throughout my life and all of them have always categorized Catholicism as a Christian religion. Most Christian religions are very similar when you look at it in a whole. Personally, I wish I could take certain of the smaller differences in each religion and combine them, because there are things that I agree with in say, the methodist denomination. I do think priests should be allowed to get married, and I don't really like the idea of penance. I do have to say I'm not a truly faithful Catholic, nor am I involved in any other Christian religion, but I've been through enough catholic schooling to present facts...and so that is what I'm doing. I defend this religion because it's what I know, but at this time I'm finding true beliefs and faith in my life isn't coming from a book or a priest/preacher. I have to believe that true faith comes from what's in our hearts and for some of you what's in you heart is exactly what your church is teaching.
I've never held anything against another denomination of Christianity, nor have I EVER heard another catholic from any of the churches I've attended do so either. I have to say, that's one of the things they were very good about. THere were lots of things I hated about the church, but many of those things had to do with humanity and human nature itself, not so much with what the church taught.
I personally can't read a bible and find much meaning to it. For me it's just words, like any other book I've ever read. For some people the bible holds all the turth they'll ever need, but as a Catholic, I was taught the passages were more like stories than paragraphs with bajillions of hidden meanings. I tend to like the bible more when I think of it as a story book, because fictional stories have taught me more than true life stories. I never really saw what the problem is with thinking that perhaps the bible was written to teach morals, and not to be taken as true life stories. I can guarantee that I'll get bashed here for even mentioning the fact that I don't believe the bible is true to life, but as someone said above, the bible holds a different translation for everyone...simply because we're human.
Joan, no one ever said they don't believe you. I think we would all like to hear what you have to say on the subject, and perhaps you can lead us in a new direction of conversation if this one is bothering you. I don't want to see another thread get trashed, but so far I have yet to see a nasty post here. My posts have been short and to the point because I have very little time to post them. It's one reason why they may seem so choppy, but between working two jobs, taking care of my animals, schoolwork, and the ambulance squad I rarely have a chance to post here anymore. I have to fit a lot into one post, so I apologize in advance if I seem like I'm being "short" with anyone.
I find it very interesting that religions all categorized under the same Christian title find it so hard to accept each other. It interests me not because I'm looking at it from a religious point of view where "I'm right and you're wrong", but rather from the psychological aspect of it all. People in general find it hard to agree on much of anything. But why are the two most debated subjects religons and politics? I don't really think it's because the different religions and different views of politics are all that different, but rather because people feel a need to defend their beliefs. I feel a need to defend what I've been taught, even if it's something I don't believe in. I think in many ways it's instinct: Defned your territory, whereas religion is the territory and those who disagree are the invaders.
Hmmm...interesting stuff. I'm getting off topic, but perhaps this may take us into a different direction.
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Post by Morgana Le Fay on Apr 5, 2006 9:06:27 GMT -5
That about sums it up. I like that.
I've always been taught the words and rituals are a people thing. Like the "debts and debtors" and "Tresspasses and tresspassers" - people thing. Different rituals - different ways to feel connected to God - people thing. Different ways of looking at things, different perspectives - people thing. Arguing over those differences - people thing. I really don't thing Gods cares which denomination you are, because he knows you and knows what you believe. God wants us to love our neighbor - not argue minor details with them. So what if they do something different? They believe in God and Christ too, even if they express it in a different way. I think God would rather us accept those differences than split the Christian community apart.
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Post by Padawan goober-shadowslayer on Apr 5, 2006 16:36:03 GMT -5
I like the things that you said foxhunter. Some things I agree on and some things I did not. I am a Catholic. And we practice our faith all the time. As you said foxhunter I have never heard that we were apart from Christianity. How can we not be christian? The Catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ. It is a historical fact!!! Every christian was a Catholic until the first split by the Eastern Orthodox in the year 1054. What denomination are you? And when denomination did that start? Who was your founder? One example is Evangelicals started in 1934 in ohio.
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Post by Ali Blue on Apr 5, 2006 17:50:45 GMT -5
hmm.. interesting stuff. Silver, it's always interesting reading your posts. I might not always agree with you but I do enjoy discussing things with you. I most definitely agree that people feel the need to defend their beliefs, or that which is familiar to them, just as a child would defend their mother. It has always been that way, ever since sin entered the world. Commander, yes God wants us to love our neighbor as ourselves, but not at the expense of the truth. I know that arguing over petty details should not be done, ( I have done this..) but some details simply cannot be pushed to the side, for those details are what make up the very foundation of our beliefs; and I will not ignore those details simply so everyone will get along. Not if it compromises my faith or my conscience.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Apr 5, 2006 21:15:42 GMT -5
EXACTLY! And so many others of different beliefs and religions feel the same as you do. What they believe is the "Truth" and what you believe is your "Turht". While many will argue that there cannot be two separte truths, I have to partly agree with this. There cannot be two different truths, but there can be different sides to a single truth. For example, it's tru that the Earth was created, some way, somehow, correct? Some people believe it was created by God in a week, and others believe it was created by a "big bang". It doesn't matter what you believe, because all these versions lead up to the same solitary truth; The world was created.
All people different and so it's only natural that people have different beliefs to fit what they believe, their lifestyle, their habits, their experiences, etc. Some people just happen to believe in the same thing as others, and thus religions are formed. Standards are set for these religions and they are passed through the ages, yet change and separation are only natural. Others, such as myself, feel as though they need room to breath, so to speak. We feel as if we can't follow the beliefs of another and we must make our own paths. I still believe in the same truth as you, my version is just a bit different. It doesn't matter what religion a person is because all religion really is are different ways to look at the same thing. Differing interpretations of a single truth, just as the interpretation of the bible is different for each person. That's all a religion title comes down to; Titles to categorize different interpretations of the same thing.
LOL, thanks. At least I know not everyone hates my posts ;-P I do like reading different views. Just as was mentioned above, every one is so different which makes life interesting.
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