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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 22:44:17 GMT -5
"See In my POV, I see ppl who try to convince others to change to christianity (not that you are doing this) but I see them as ignorant. I mean, I can't bring myself to understand how one could think everything they believed was so right that EVERYONE else who didn't believe the same was wrong."
Hey, now! I know I'm gonna be wrong about some things! Absolutely! But there are other things that I know, because of the Bible and the nature of God, those things are just wrong. So, I can't accept them. Would you be able to respect me if I really, truly thought that something was wrong, dangerous, and just went along? Kept the peace? That's not what you do...you don't get carried by the flow. You stand; so do I. But I have a rock to stand on, while you...?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 22:47:04 GMT -5
Last post for tonight, I promise...
"Firstly, don't separate catholics and christians. You need a history lesson! ; ) But not now... Actually, I don't necessarily pity or fear them, either. I do not condemn them. I condemn their wrong actions. I try to be a friend to anyone in need of a friend. Sometimes a friend doesn't have to be supportive of certain behaviour. The trick is learning to "condemn" an action without condemning a person. It can be done, believe me. "
No, I know Catholics are Christians, believe me, I went through almost 10 years of schooling. Christians that are not catholics often hate when I clump all christians together, as a lot of christians don't like to be mistaken as Catholics. Hence the reason I separate them.
Ok, you condemn and action but how would you feel in this situation? Say, mayb eyou bite your fingernails (hypothetically of course). You have a friend who thinks this is wrong and they believe you are going to Hell because of it. You would not be upset in the least that this person was always thinking that you were going to Hell for that? I've had friends like that and to be truthful, they aren't my friends anymore. I could not stand to be treated like that. I felt like dirt. It's not fun, but perhaps you may not know what I am talking about because you have never experienced it, but one day you will. Let's just hope whoever does experience this has the wisdom to understand what it really means.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 25, 2005 22:47:07 GMT -5
Ah, yes. We won't go into the homosexuality deal now, okay? That is way to big of an issue and I don't want to talk about it here. Take a look at the homosexuality poll and read the blurbs to get my reasoning.
Next: She's saying that She herself thinks herself right but that is because of her point of view. Like what I've been saying the whole time: Truth is relative, each person thinks something is the truth, not exactly does it have to be though.
And lastly: Condeming isn't something anyone needs to do. Its bullying and is used to make the condem-er feel ritous and higher than the condem-ee.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 22:49:20 GMT -5
Yes, I don't need to claim that what I think is right is truth because it does not matter to me whether or not others believe the same way I do. I've always been a renegade...and I always will be.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 22:52:17 GMT -5
"You have a friend who thinks this is wrong and they believe you are going to Hell because of it. You would not be upset in the least that this person was always thinking that you were going to Hell for that. I've had friends like that and to be truthful, they aren't my friends anymore. I could not stand to be treated like that."
Hmmm...my determination would have to hinge one whether or not this friend is backed by truth. Believe me, I know what you're talking about. Hate is a terrible thing, when it's pointed in the wrong direction. But without my moral law, how do I know what the right direction is? You're telling me that people who behave that way don't deserve your friendship. Okay, you may be right. To find out, I'd need to look at the situation and hold it up to my standard. But without a standard, all you can say is that, hey, that's his/her opinion, and she's right according to herself. Then, the only reason you have for cutting off the friendship is that you can't stand to be around someone who thinks she's helping you. At least I'd have a reason, even if I made a mistake. You're telling me that you have no reason for anthing, except that some things please you while some don't. That's not a way of life; it's living a lie.
"I've always been a renegade..."
That's fine. I don't condemn you, or hate you, or think that you're hopeless. Please don't lump me in with whatever hateful crowd you've know! *frustrated* What I do believe is that if you really, truly thought some things were right (as you say you do), then you would stand up for those things. Saying you don't care means that you don't really stand for what you say you believe.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 25, 2005 22:57:14 GMT -5
Just wondering. Were you saying we are living a lie? Cuz if you are thats some dangerous ground. If you are I could easily say that you are living a lie.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 22:59:22 GMT -5
Hmmm...live dangerously, says I. Say it. None of us needs to be afraid here. I say that if you're telling me that you believe things are right/wrong because of personal preference, you're not being honest with yourself.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 22:59:57 GMT -5
Last post...really.
"You're telling me that you have no reason for anthing, except that some things please you while some don't. That's not a way of life; it's living a lie."
Haha, no I probably have no reason for anything. My life is spontaneous and filled with drama. 'Tis just the way I like it. Some things don't please me and I have a choice not to be around them and so I take it. I am human, as are you and the rest of us here, no matter how much we believe we are something else.
A lie in your opinion...a way of life in mine.
Why should I be around a person who just causes pain? I'd rather not be and I'm sure you wouldn't want to be around a person like this.
If you want to see a website filled with people that are flaming examples of what I am talking about, I can PM it to you. It's not pretty. I've been globally banned...twice. hehe. In all seriousness though, if you want to experience what it feels liketo be around people who think every one is wrong except for themselves, let me know.
Sorry, too tired to think much longer. Goodnight.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 23:03:09 GMT -5
"And lastly: Condeming isn't something anyone needs to do. Its bullying and is used to make the condem-er feel ritous and higher than the condem-ee. "
I like this. My hat goes off to Faust for that analogy.
I'm not here to convert, nor do I wish too. That is the reason I don't care. I don't need you to believe what I do, I am simply backing what I believe because I believe it. Not caring is a term that would be better suited for a person not backing their beliefs.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 23:03:27 GMT -5
"I am human, as are you and the rest of us here, no matter how much we believe we are something else."
If I were a slightly different person, I would not rest until I hurt you for that comment. Is cruelty a good thing, in your opinion? That hurts. I have a reason that I will not take it personally. And guess what? It's my moral standard. Please, tell me straight out, do you believe that the only existing truth is individual opinion? If so, then we can get on with serious talk. If not, keep hammering at me. I'm human, cha...not an angel.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 23:05:29 GMT -5
Who's hammering? Are you saying you are not human? I'm sorry, I don't know what you meant by your last post.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 23:09:33 GMT -5
Hmmm...tired we are, yes...*yawn* It means that I resent your comment. It was not called for, and it shows me that you think I am just another intolerant christian freak who's after your soul for myself. Ouch. I'm doing the best I can, but there are things that I can't compromise. You are at least the most consistent follower of your particular beliefs that I have ever known. I'm willing to give you respect.
Question to ponder tonight: Was what Hitler did right or wrong?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 23:13:13 GMT -5
I said I was human too, so I don't see how that comment said you were any different from myself.
As for the question, it depends whose POV you are asking for. Me, I'd say he was wrong, but if I was looking at the situation through his eyes, I'd be right in what I was doing.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 23:16:57 GMT -5
Sorry...you seemed to imply that I felt I was more than human. That kinda cuts...
As for the rest...You would be right, or you would think you were right? Can you honestly say that the terrible things that happened by his authority are only wrong to the people who didn't like them? If I were to murder you in your sleep, would that be okay, as long as I thought it was okay? Only you wouldn't like it...I see. Might makes right? If I can make my opinion count for more than yours, then it makes me right. Is that your truth?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 25, 2005 23:52:48 GMT -5
If you killed me in my sleep, I don't think I'd have much time to think about whether you are right or wrong...lol.
Being serious, It may be ok to you to murder me, but I, myself, and possibly the general population would not see it as right. Unfortunately (or possibly fortunately), our society is bound to the oppinions of the general population. What majority thinks is right is what often wins over the minority. To me, the only way one could make their opinion count as more is if they were to have won over the general population's opinions.
I think of truth as a court. Both sides have their story, as there are always two stories to anything. One side tells their rendition of the truth and the other side tells their's. Think of the jury as the general population. In a court case, majority ruling wins because they believe that either the plaintiff or the defendant are lying. So how do we find out who is telling the truth in this type of situation? Not much in life is 100% and unfortunately, truth is usually this way as well. How can we know what truth is, when everything has two sides to the story? I mean, if you look close enough, even the bible contradicts itself. How can anyone be positive of the truth? They can have faith in the truth and have faith that what they believe is the truth, but how can they KNOW it is the truth?
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 25, 2005 23:56:24 GMT -5
"I mean, if you look close enough, even the bible contradicts itself." Hey, now! Back that up m'dear...can't face it properly if you don't.
So, in your version of the universe, might does indeed make right. It reduces everything to personal preference. One person likes chocolate, another doesn't. One person likes murder, another doesn't. Or soda. Or rape. Or slavery. Is that true to what you believe?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 26, 2005 0:18:42 GMT -5
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 26, 2005 13:10:33 GMT -5
"Despite the hysterical claims by mindless bible-cheerleaders..."
Hmmm...thanks a lot, Silv...! I'm still reading, and I'll edit this to counter.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 26, 2005 14:10:53 GMT -5
Ack, just look at the actual contradictions. The last site gets a bit crazy. The other two are good.
I do hate it when people tell me EVERYTHING in the bible is true, because EVERYTHING I believe is wrong and then they start throwing out bible verses to me. As soon as someone start doing that I tend to block them out. You see, I don't want to hear what's been printed in a book repeated over and over again. I'd rather hear their version of the truth from their own minds and in their own words. It seems much more personal that way and it shows that they actually want to defend their status and beliefs.
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Post by Master Warious on May 26, 2005 16:56:59 GMT -5
I.E. you won't be swayed *assuming you wanted to be that is I'm not trying to* by bible thumping. Believe me I hate people who do that too. They drive me nuts. Joan, what you need to realize is that many people are not going to even come near to agreeing with you just because we can quote scripture till our tongue falls out. *Maybe God should make mine do just that since I get into so much trouble with my spoken words* Argumentation by logic may work but not with the results you may want. Look at Paul. He argued with the Greeks useing good orator skills and logic. Some sided with him most didn't. That is because the greeks didn't believe in sin. They did believe in gods. When Paul saw the altar to the unnamed god, that opened up oppurtunity for Paul to speak his fiath to them. In contrast to Peter, the Jews believed in God and knew about sin. So the Fire and Brimstone, 'Fall on your knees and repent you vile sinner' thing worked with them. In early American and colonial times, peter's way worked because it was a rare thing to Not believe in sin. Today however, people are more like the Greeks and need to be swayed by logic if they wish to be swayed at all. I know its frusterating to some, especially in an Evangelical church, but that's the way it is. And if God's calling a person to Him they will respond to what we have to say. Not before he calls them. And God calls to all of us, it's the person's heart that must be reseptive to His call. Makeing any scence?
As for coutering what people point out as contradiction *sigh*
Let's take a popular one. "If God loves every one then why do people go to Hell?"
Is that an appropriate contradiction for you Silver or do you want to take another one?
I'm not trying to show you up or anything, but I would like to know what would be a fair contradiction for you to argue.
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