Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaiya on Jun 20, 2005 12:20:44 GMT -5
Ok... Let me start this post by stating that what I'm about to say is not meant to offend anyone here or start any kind of flaming, but I feel the need to make a point that I'm sure will make some people here angry. Just hear me out and try to keep in mind that I'm not trying to disrespect you or insult you in any way.
This is to address what Joan said about the Old Testament rules not applying to today's Christians. I want to remind you all of some things people have said in this board:
"Just for the record, the idea that the Bible is only partly the Word of God--and we can therefore take what we want and leave the rest--is what is going to send many, many unsuspecting people into Hell."
"But if you don't believe all the Bible, or change the interpetation, that in itself is a sin. I know it's easy to misinterpet, and I know that saying things were for that time are true. But saying that the over and over again stated is wrong just because of one possibility... seems... well... wrong."
"To ignore or change God's word is a sin."
"To believe in evolution is to take something that is completely of the world and mix it with God's Word."
"The biggest deal with man evolving is that it contradicts Genesis. If you believe in evolution, then you have to throw out Genesis."
"Nothing in the Bible is minor enough to make little difference. If you doubt this, then check out Jesus' defense against the Pharisees. He got pretty specific with His quoting of the Scriptures, even basing His arguement on the tense of a verb. In the end, it doesn't matter whether or not parts of the Scripture are important to you; it doesn't change the fact that those parts are the truth."
"So, basically, if something in the Bible conflicts your opinion and what you think is right, you think it's okay to just get rid of it?"
Ok... So here's my problem... You guys are now arguing that rules stated in the Old Testament no longer apply to Christians, even the ones that Jesus himself respected. Your reasoning for this, as you stated, is that certain people cannot physically handle fasting. Also, you don't agree with ritual cleansings and sacrifices. Now, forgive me if I sound a little harsh, but don't you think that you guys are being a little hypocritical? Throughout the arguments in this board, you have told us to take God's word literally and to not "throw out" parts of the Bible because they contradict things "that are completely of this world" (like scientific evidence along with diabetes and hypoglycemia). You have also told us that we must believe everything in the Bible and follow everything in the Bible.
I just want you to realize that what you guys are currently telling us seems to contradict your previous arguments and perhaps you shouldn't criticize us for disregarding certain statements in the Bible when you do the same thing.
Once again, I apologize if any of you find this offensive or insulting. I'm merely trying to make a point.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on Jun 20, 2005 12:26:10 GMT -5
My my wasn't that a long post. Well said Kaiya.
*evaporates*
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Post by Trinity on Jun 20, 2005 13:55:12 GMT -5
These rules were given BEFORE Jesus came and died for us. That was the ULTIMATE sacrifice, so now thanks to Him, our sins no longer have to be covered with the blood of animals because they were covered with His blood. That would also go the same for the cleansing rituals. A lot of these laws were made for the health and safety of God's people. Back then, they didn't have sewage, disinfectant, and other forms of sanitation. Many of the cleansing laws were made to keep disease and other sicknesses away.
And of course Jesus respected these laws. They were laid down by His Father. And also, He hadn't died yet, so to go against these laws would have been wrong. When Jesus walked the earth before He died, the laws were still in effect. I guess you could say that after His death, the sacrificial laws were kind of canceled for those who believed in and followed Him because His blood forgave all the sins of those who would believe in Him. I just realized that I don't remember reading in the New Testament about any of the apostles making animal sacrifices after the death of Jesus, but I'll have to look to make sure.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on Jun 20, 2005 13:59:00 GMT -5
*revaporates*
So couldn't you say that about lots of different things in the bible?
*evaporates again*
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Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaiya on Jun 20, 2005 14:35:06 GMT -5
I think you're missing the point. I'm not arguing that animal sacrifices, fasting, stoning, or any of the other Old Testament laws should be kept. Some of these rules were canceled out by Jesus' death. Not all, but some. I can agree to that. Fasting is not one of the laws Jesus' did away with. You guys made the argument that fasting doesn't apply because of homeostatic imbalances, therefore justifying your means for disregarding a section of the Bible, one that is enforced over and over again. However, you all have often told me and some of the others not to disregard sections of the Bible, no matter what arguments we have to justify it. I'm simply saying, don't be hypocritical. You can't tell us to stop "throwing out" sections of the Bible when you do the same thing.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jun 20, 2005 16:46:29 GMT -5
I just have to say I don't agree with ANY sort of animal sacrificing. Not even from the people who did it long ago. If people want to sacrifice something, they should sacrifice themselves. Why in the world would God want you to sacrifice a lamb or even your own child? That's the most barbaric thing anyone could do. Almost disrespectful to nature if I do say so myself...disrespectful to the nature GOD created himself.
Sorry, I am going off on a tangent. Resume your original discussion now. *smiles*
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Post by Trinity on Jun 20, 2005 18:23:30 GMT -5
Are you kidding me? God does NOT want you to sacrifice your child! That's a form of pagan worship and God abhors it. Now, as for lambs, I know it's sad because I'm not all that crazy about it either, but that was what had to be done. Don't ask me why.
I don't even know how to respond to this. What I meant was taking some things and obeying them, but deciding you didn't want to follow other parts. I guess I screwed that one up real good though, apparently. I'll tell you though, I don't throw out sectoins of my Bible. Sorry if it seems that way to you.
Fasting is a principal of the Bible. If you were in a spiritual battle and God impressed upon you the need to fast, then that can strengthen you in that time and you can fight more powerfully. Also, it quiets your mind so you can hear from God more easily. But it doesn't say in the Bible, "Thou shalt fast or be condemned". It isn't commanded, although it is suggested. If God tells you to fast, as He often told His people in the Bible, then I highly suggest you do so.
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Post by Jareth on Jun 20, 2005 20:55:40 GMT -5
Leviticus 16:31 "That day is to be a very holy day, one on which they fast and do no work at all. These regulations are to be observed for all time to come." Leviticus 23:27 "On that day, do not eat anything at all; come together for worship, and present a food offering to the Lord." Numbers 29:7 "Gather for worship on the tenth day of the seventh month; eat no food and do no work." Joel 2:12 "'But even now,' says the Lord, 'repent sincerely and return to me with fasting and weeping and mourning.'" Fasting IS commanded in the Bible, as you can see from these quotes. Twice in fact. Once as a ritual to be practiced on the same day every single year, and once as a way for people to show God that they were sorry for their sins. Besides these two commands for fasting, fasting is something done time and time again and (I did plenty of research today to be sure) tons of theology experts who have studied the Bible over and over again say that even Jesus assumed that his followers would be fasting (something evident in Matthew) although he never directly commanded them to do so. He taught them how to fast properly so that they would not be hypocrites or untrue in their worship. not really. since God gave Jesus to die for us, a lot of commandments (not the ten commandments) were no longer necessary to keep, for instance, He no longer makes us sacrifice lambs because Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice, I'm looking for something for the people after Christ died. I have six questions for ya'll: Where do you go when you die? What is the nature of God? What is the nature of man? How do you know what you're saying is true? What if you're wrong? What difference does it make that you're right or wrong?
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Post by Trinity on Jun 20, 2005 21:06:37 GMT -5
Whoa! Those are all good questions, Jareth, but this is the In the Beginning thread. You can open another thread to address those questions, though! We just need to stay as closely on topic here as possible. Not that we are doing a very good job... But still, if you want to address all those questions, please feel free start another thread! It would be much appreciated...
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Post by Jareth on Jun 20, 2005 21:10:35 GMT -5
Kaiya: we are not changing the Bible, what's there is there, read it if you're so unsure. don't take our word for it, we could be lying to you, read it for yourself! I just have to say I don't agree with ANY sort of animal sacrificing. Not even from the people who did it long ago. If people want to sacrifice something, they should sacrifice themselves. Why in the world would God want you to sacrifice a lamb or even your own child? That's the most barbaric thing anyone could do. Almost disrespectful to nature if I do say so myself...disrespectful to the nature GOD created himself. Sorry, I am going off on a tangent. Resume your original discussion now. *smiles* are you referring to Abraham? God just wanted to test his faith. He wasn't going to let him kill his own son.
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Post by Dûncariel is Dead. on Jun 20, 2005 21:36:46 GMT -5
As Jareth said, God stopped Abraham before he could sacrifice Isaac. Sacrifice in the OT was for the purification of sins -- blood was required. But, through what is known as the New Covenant, sacrifice is no longer needed because of Christ's sacrifice.
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Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaiya on Jun 20, 2005 23:17:58 GMT -5
Gah. That wasn't my point at ALL... Sacrifice wasn't the issue I wanted to focus on here, despite the fact that I strongly disagree with it. It was an example that I used to make my point. I wanted to make the point that some people here were starting to sound quite hypocritical with their arguments, doing things that they had told me not to do, and I was getting rather upset about it. At the moment, I don't care about sacrifice, I don't care about fasting, all I care about is making sure that people realize that their previous arguments are being contradicted by their current ones.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jun 21, 2005 8:25:15 GMT -5
Don't generalize for me; I seem to be good enough at that myself. We aren't being hypocritcal here. What we ARE saying is that certain OT rules obviously and consistently apply to the Jewish religion. Israelites. A Theocracy no longer in existance. This is all dealt with in the New Testament! Paul spent heaps of time explaining exactly why dates, times, and rituals are now fulfilled, and we don't need to continue those OT practices. Remember? Paul summarizes that we shouldn't eat things sacrificed to idols--in other words, be careful not to be associated with pagan religions, whatever there customs may be. Don't eat blood--in other words, do not go against the natural order set down by God and do not disrespect life. Those are the principles. Other than those things, we don't need to worry about Jewish rules: those were never the way to be saved, anyway. It was always Jesus. Now that we see more clearly, we don't need the symbolism those things provided.
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Post by Trinity on Jun 21, 2005 10:55:18 GMT -5
Well said Joan, and thanks...
We AREN'T throwing things out of the Bible, and forgive us if we seem hypocritical. You aren't supposed to throw things out. But, it is all addressed in the New Testament how we don't have to follow the old rules for the Jews anymore because Jesus came and died. We ARE following the Bible because that is what it says.
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CJ
Agent of Gondor
"oooh, what have we here?" "it's a man cub, it is."
Posts: 181
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Post by CJ on Jun 21, 2005 20:04:16 GMT -5
it's either accept that Jesus died and forget about certain rules, or refuse to accept that Jesus came and rid us of them. it's one or the other. one's black, one's white, no gray.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on Jun 21, 2005 20:29:24 GMT -5
There is always grey my friend, even if we don't know it right now or forget it, there is still grey.
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Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaiya on Jun 21, 2005 20:31:24 GMT -5
Jesus didn't say that he was going to rid us of fasting or slavery or all of the religious festivals or forbidden sexual practices... In fact, the only Old Testament rules that I can think of that Jesus did away with were sacrifices, healing on the Sabbath, not casting out the sick, and the laws about only Israelites being considered God's people. And yet today's Christians cast out other rules in the Old Testament and keep the ones that they like, simply based on what they believe is right. None of you keep slaves, but I'm almost positive (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) that you think that homosexuals are going to hell. And none of you celebrate the old festivals, but you probably like to keep the laws of tithing. How do you decide which parts of the Old Testament to keep and which ones you ignore? Jesus (as far as I know) never once addressed at least half of the laws of Leviticus or Numbers.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jun 21, 2005 20:35:04 GMT -5
People aren't going to do things if it inconvienses (sp?) themselves. That is the reason people people disregard parts of the bible. People don't want to go out of the way to do certain things.
I don't have time to type more, but I will later.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jun 21, 2005 20:56:11 GMT -5
Watch yourself, kid.
I don't keep slaves, but that is not because I see slavery as a specific sin. Homosexuality is taught to be a sin in both the Old and New Testaments.
Giving money to support the church is a New Testament practice as well.
I don't ignore anything. I keep every law and guideline that I believe that the New Testament Christians kept.
He did so in summary, but not in detail. See my previous post on the Sabbath being made for man. Also, you obviously don't understand the symbolism of OT worship. That symbolism is what has become irrelevant. If you understood the principles, then it wouldn't seem random. Do some study.
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Post by Trinity on Jun 21, 2005 22:09:58 GMT -5
Slavery was a part of life until a couple hundred years ago. It's just the way things were and there were no laws endorsing it (except that slaves be obedient towards their masters) and no laws against it. It was just a way of life. And need I repeat what He said about fasting? Look at my other posts. And riding us of forbidden sexual practices? Okay, I don't exactly know what you mean by that and really don't want to get too far into it, but the only time sex is right in Jesus' eyes is in marriage, and that's the end of that. And religious festivals in the Old Testament are meant mainly for Jews (like Passover), but many people celebrate Easter and Christmas. You'll have to clear that one up too.
Ever read about Sodom and Gommorah? It's in Exodus it you want to read it... Now, if a person was a homosexual but became a Christian and stopped, yeah they will go to heaven because they will be forgiven.
I keep all the rules THAT JESUS TOLD US TO IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. If you want to see what I think about this, then go read my other posts.
A lot of people don't, but please don't generalize us! Jesus never said following Him would be easy or convenient, just to follow Him. And personnally, I'm getting tired of being accused of throwing parts of my Bible out because I don't like them. That is simply not true. I do what Jesus tells me to because I love Him and want to keep His commandments.
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