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Post by Trinity on Jul 11, 2005 12:51:08 GMT -5
Wow, nicely said, Jandalf!
Okay, shifting to mod mode...
I've read the above posts and the only thing I will say is that if you have an issue with the way someone says something, please ask them exactly what they mean before getting upset because I know that we can type something and mean it in a completely different way than how someone else will read it. And as for having threads locked, the only reason that happens is if something gets too out of hand and we want to keep people from getting ripped to pieces, because that isn't right. It's out of concern for others that we do that, and also for the site itself. And I'm in no way comming down hard on Silver or anyone else. This is just a general thing and is meant for everyone (including myself), so please don't take offense!
Okay, mod out! Back to your topic...
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Post by Tiana, eh? on Jul 19, 2005 20:55:07 GMT -5
I am going to now speak up in defence of the non-Christians here, because I'm tired of us coming down on them. They are intitled to their own beliefs, as we've said before, and their posts DO make sense. This is a debate for creation vs any other way the world could've came into existance, but trailing off on the one issue with light and dark fit in well enough with that, as we are saying God is the creator.
The remark made about "king of darkness" made utter and complete sense to me, and I don't see why such offence needed to be taken over it.
I won't deny having threatened with one-week bannings. But that was for everyone, because we Christians were flaming just as harshly.
Warious, some people could really take you the wrong way too, with your claiming to be darkside. Just a thought.
On that darkness side... I'm not sure how to put this. But I have to say they're right, in a sense of things. Darkness is not evil. Darkness is... the absense of light. But light isn't all good either. It is the motives that change what's going to happen. Light can be as bitterly evil as the shadows can... though dark is far the easier to fear. Something completely light can be completely evil. It's just a metaphor often overused that light is good and dark is bad. But if that's the case, how can someone nearly next in line to God himself turn out to be THE bad guy, and take a third of heaven's angels with him?
God is light, yes. But he also has complete control of the darkness. Satan went and asked before he tormented Job, you know...
So, to be a slight paradox here, God is king of light and dark. He is king of everything. That is, in my perspeption.
Now. What Trinity said... threads are only locked because they're getting out of hand, or were misplaced. Your "Others" thread, I would've had no issues with had you been discussing other religions at all. But you had strayed. You were discussing ghosts and hauntings and junk. That's not religious at all, and that's why I moved it and renamed it. The reasons I've threatened with tempabans is because ALL of us were getting out of hand. (to be honest, I would've banned myself for a week...)
The only reason I don't want an other religion board is for the things that could follow it. I don't care if you want to talk about Muslim, and stuff. It's the things that go after than, and come so completely against my beliefs that I'd get mad at the google adds. I don't want that sort of stuff on my site... I want this to be a safe ground for all ages, really. So if it's still the "other religion" thing that's egging you, go ahead and make a thread. Just keep it to mild discussion, not on any rituals, and crap like that that could bring about very evil google adds. I don't want things illegal and possibly harmful making it onto this site. I could be sued as site owner IF something happened. Knowing my luck, it would.
I hope that clears up why I've been against some of this stuff.
Now, carrying on with the correct topic...
I think it take more faith to believe our world was an accidental occurance than to say that someone created it. Just because of the perfection in just looking at a flower, or a chicky, or a horse, or a tree... they're...so impossible to have been made by a bang.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jul 19, 2005 22:10:04 GMT -5
This is very much off topic, but every time I've read "Muslim" I kept thinking it said "Mulder". I became confused...and then I laughed hysterically.
Sorry, I am basking in the dark rays of an underlying obsession that recently came out of remission. Agh...I need to go in a corner and rethink my obsession days.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on Jul 20, 2005 8:25:24 GMT -5
Wow, that was a long post, huh Eowyn? Anyway, yeah, thanks for clearing all that up. And thanks for understanding my "kind of darkness" comment *whew*.
Anyway, I know plenty about other religions, so if another religion thread pops up, I'll probably join it.
Now, onto the actual topic. I'm not sure what to belive with the whole creation versus big bang theory. Each have good reasons to beleive that, both have good arguments. I'm just going to have to give my usual answer: I'll look forward to finding out when I die, its one of my "ask God when I die" questions, along with 'so what did you actually do on the 7th day for rest? Was it foozeball? I love foozeball, wanna play me?'.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jul 20, 2005 10:07:48 GMT -5
That's right...I was only saying it's a good metaphor, and one that the Bible uses. No metaphor is perfect...!
As to the topic, I think everyone knows what I believe. I believe that the Bible is truth. God absolutely COULD have created the world by evolution if He'd wanted to do so...but He didn't want to! Six days of creation, a day of rest is what the Bible says. It even tells us how God measured a day: evening and morning. If God didn't mean seven days, then why did He say seven days?
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Post by Caffeinerush on Jul 28, 2005 13:02:31 GMT -5
"No metaphor is perfect...!" If God said one it would be. Don't take this as an attack. Just making a point. Other than that, I completely agree.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jul 28, 2005 19:37:21 GMT -5
*gasp*...He has said some. They are perfect...good job!
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Post by Ali Blue on Dec 28, 2005 12:43:00 GMT -5
A little off the topic at hand, but since nobody has posted here in a while: I thought I remembered someone mentioning Lucy earlier, and how she proves the evolution theory. If evolution is true, then, there should be millions of skeletons like Lucy! what, was it that first there was one ape with the ribs of a cow, and the jaw of a human, then about 2 million years later, Lucy popped up out of the ground, then out of Lucy popped billions of people who populate the earth? Where's Lucy's parents? where are her cousins, siblings, rivals, children? where did they go? Did they go to live on Mars? Another thing, there is no such thing as a Christian evolutionist. If you can't believe the first few pages of the Bible, you strike down with it the other 65 books! If the first part's not true, who's to say the rest of it isn't either? If you trust in God enough to save your soul from being burned forever in Hell, you should at least trust Him enough when He says He created this earth by intelligent design, in six days, not six billion years.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Dec 28, 2005 17:15:48 GMT -5
They have most likely deteriorated and decomposed, just like all the recent dead are currently doing. Bones decompose too, don't forget. It takes special conditions for a corpse to be preserved and not every single dead thing fell under those conditions. I can't even say how many times I've heard someone say that if dinosaurs evolved into modern animals such as birds and reptiles, we would have found many more bones and fossils resembling the changes made to become the modern creatures. However, they forget to realize that bodies decompose, no matter how big. Hot to mention, finding any sort of fossil or preserved creature is like finding a needle in a haystack. It happens with pure luck. That all paleontology and antropology is...blind luck that you find something and then more blind luck that you find something interesting.
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Post by Ali Blue on Dec 30, 2005 0:19:45 GMT -5
what's the chance of just one body not decomposing? They find thousands of dead humans, who haven't decomposed. They should at least be able to find the people who were one step before regular humans.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Dec 30, 2005 10:39:39 GMT -5
But, they don't[/d] find thousands of dead humans. They find dead human egyptians, because of their practice of embalming to preserve the body. They find corpses from a few other cultures who shared the egyptians' method of mummifying. I've only heard of a very few corspes that have been found where no embalming had been done. Of course you have fossils, but the fossils are not real bone. They are simply bone replaced by rock, so that wouldn't tell us anything DNA wise.
We know that people have been evolving since the days of the egyptians. Slowly, but we have been evolving. Millions of years ago, whats to say we looked very different? The egyptians existed 2000 years ago and their hands, feet, and skull structure were different from humans today. If we evolved like that in 2000 years (Which has been proven), then what's stopping us from evolving very slowly over lots and lots of time? The world has existed for billions of year, so if you believe the thoery that God created the earth he made it billions of years ago. Supposedly, from what I've read, he puts humans here first, or Adam and Eve. Where do all the other animals come in? What about dinosaurs? Some of the animals shown in picture bibles depict giraffes, birds, fish, etc. I have a very strong feeling that birds didn't just poof here, but that they were instead evolved from dinosaurs and much of the proof found today will back that up 100%. If birds evolved from dinosaurs, why couldn't humans evolve from apes or some other creature (I don't believe we evolved from apes such as the ones you see today, but from some other animal similar to them)
Back to Adam and Eve. They had the duty of populating the earth, right? So they probably had to live a pretty long time, correct? Humans today live an average of 70 years. Back then I remember reading someone saying they may have lived 900 some years. That's evolution right there! There was no longer any need for long life and so they evolved it out. Now of course this is only if one believes the bible point of view.
I myself, believe the world was created by dust particles in outer space, such as we have seen several other planets forming today in the outer reaches of the universe. How come those planets haven't been created by the hand of God like earth was? What stops Earth from having been created like these other planets? It only makes sense, right? However, a strong believing Christian would cast out science for their bible (Not saying this in a negative manner. I myself am a person of science. I would rather my text book than a bible.) There is proof all around us though.
I personally think the first creature was single celled and it evolved from there. Sort of like the finches on galapagos island. In the beginning there was one type of finch and because they each had separate needs, they evolved in to many many other types of finch. The same thing happened to the lemurs on Madagascar.
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Post by Ali Blue on Dec 31, 2005 16:50:30 GMT -5
it's not evolution, Silver. it's polution. There weren't as many diseases back then. Plus, the water that came down from the heavens during the flood provided more protection for humans. Additionally, their lifestyle was way different from ours now. They ate healthier foods, exercised more, and there are so many variables that prove that evolution never happened. another thing, if the earth is so old, the moon should be just as old, there should be 100 times as much dust on the moon as there is now, and it should be a heck of a lot closer. how did the single celled organism get there? things now just don't poof out of thin air. I don't think they did at the beginning of time either. about the animals coming after humans. the Bible states that they came on the same day as Adam and Eve. (earlier on in the day) Day 1: light and dark a.k.a. night and day Day 2: sky Day 3: dry ground, seas, vegetation Day 4: stars, sun, moon. Day 5: birds and water animals Day 6: land animals, humans Day 7: He rested science is a strong part of religion. people tend to cast it out because they want to believe that Christians have no foundation, but, we do! we have proof! the theory that the earth, which is such a complex and perfectly designed planet, came together out of millions of tiny little specs of dust, is not credible. it's like putting all the seperate parts of a pocket watch down a waterfall and waiting for them to come together. it just doesn't work that way.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jan 1, 2006 15:24:20 GMT -5
You just discredited the theory of the bible by that statement. Your absolutely right. If God created the Earth and all the other planets, then he created the moon the same day as earth. You just said it yourself, the scientific evidence, the concrete evidence, desn't support the theory so stated in the bible. The moon wasn't created at the same time as the Earth. In fact, the moon was made from the earth, a mere fragment broken off and thrown into orbit around our planet. God didn't make the moon, so what's stopping someone from saying he didn't create the earth either.
Ok I feel I need to say this because of recent things I've discovered and because of recent events that have taken place within my family. These threads are going well, so it's not because of anything that has happened here, but I think I need to make this one belief of mine clear. People can believe what ever they want. If it gives them internal peace, than I believe they should go on believing that. It certainly doesn't mean I have to believe what they believe, but I certainly don't think they are wrong for believing these things. I do however, think that these threads serve as a more intellectual type of discussion, rather than a discussion of acceptance and so I am giving my side, my proof, and setting it all on the table. Feel free to believe what you are believing, but I just hate to always feel like I'm discrediting someone else's belief if that is the way they want to believe things.
Ok, now that that's on the table I can continue my discussion. I just felt that was something I had to say.
Anyway, it was stated that God created animals, plants, and the planet, but it said nothing about bacteria, single celled organisms, and viruses. Where do these things come in? Is it just supposed to be a fill in the blank sort of thing in the bible? Supposedly god created everything living and non-living, but what about the viruses, that are neither living nor dead?
You are right in my eyes about the fact that things couldn't have just popped onto the earth, but according to your theory, that's exactly what happened. Humans and dinosaurs didn't exist at the same times in history. So where do they come in?
The bible is much too vague for me. I like facts and concrete evidence. I do have an open mind and believe me I've studied parapsychology for many many years. It's a facisnation of mine, but I just can't bring myself to believe everything written in a simple book known as the bible written by human hands. Yes, yes, I know that supposedly the bible was written "Through humans by god", but the simple fact that it's hundreds of years old, passed down by generations of humans causes me to think that the bible has become somewhat altered. Don't forget the bible was translated from language to language before the English language even came into existance. Some altercations were bound to be made through this translation. Myths were supposed to based on reall stories that happened hundreds and thousands of years ago and look how warped some of those have become throughout time.
Mind you, if it weren't for the scientific proof of dinosaurs, evolution, and the new planets coming into existance today, I would maybe believe the Christian belief.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jan 2, 2006 13:38:02 GMT -5
Are you a scientist? Or do you believe on faith and logic that what actual scientists say is true? I believe the Bible by faith, and am further convinced of its inerrancy by logic. That evens the scales. Scientists' ideas change all the time, but the Bible has remained unchanged for centuries. That fact tips the credibility scales in the direction of the Bible.
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Post by Morgana Le Fay on Jan 2, 2006 18:26:36 GMT -5
I'm going to jump in here:
I'm a Christian, I believe most of the Bible (haven't read all of it) and I also believe in evolution.
Here's why:
Time is a human concept. We're the ones who feel the need to measure things. The question is: what is time to God? Could a day be years? Months? Weeks? Centuries? Millennia? Nowhere have I read in the Bible that God is bound by human concepts when not dealing with humans.
The earth could have been created in millennia. After all, what is a million years to God? The moon could have been made from the leftovers, but since all we know about the moon is just guesses, we can't tell.
Lucy was well preserved. It takes hundreds of thousands of years for bones to decay, but they still do. That explains why others haven't been found.
As an amature scirentist, I am aware that science laws and theories are just guesses that have been proven over and over. That doesn't mean the reasoning behind the laws and theories is correct, it just means that the people who made them found an explanation that they understood and made sense to them at the time.
Sicence is founded on these principles that have accumulated ove the years. Doesn't mean those explanations are right, it just means that's the only explanation that the person at the time could make sense of.
Evolution can happen and it does. To me, it's part of God's design. He made creatures, plants, the Earth, humans, to adapt to changes they inflict upon each other over time. Creationist scientists have found evidence for it. So have scientists, they just haven't seen the bigger picture always.
How you will see things is based on what you are bound by. God isn't bound by human rules. His day probably isn't our day. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means our concepts and the way we see things just isn't his way.
This is what I believe: you don't have to accept it, you don't have to like it. All I ask is that you tolerate it, like I tolerate your opinions and beliefs. I will back up my opinions, though, with proof that I believe fits.
((I ahd a better post, but it got lost))
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jan 2, 2006 18:52:37 GMT -5
I hesitate to answer this because I'm not quite sure whether that statement was made out of sarcasm.
But to answer your question; Yes, I am a scientist. I have been a scientist since the day I was born. I've done my own studies, my own experiments. I have my theories and I've read many, many books.
I trust my own intuition on things, and I will always do so. My instincts have gotten me out of many binds and have supported more beliefs of mine than I can count.
Most people are scientists, whether or not they wish to believe so. Every single person that has pursued a theory, conducted an experiment, or simply looked up into the sky and wondered what is really up there is a scientist. Therefore, yes, I can truly say I am a scientist.
Just as truly religious Christians share beliefs with other Christians, just as they go to services every Sunday, or even pick up and read the bible, they too are sharing ideas and beliefs, much like these "actual" scientists share their ideas.
You answered your own question on what you believe.
Yes, I have faith in many other scientists in their information and yes, I am convinced of their inerrancy by logic, much the same as you are with the bible.
People of all religions are very much alike, but most people fail to realize this. Science may not be a religion, but it is a belief, much the same as Christianity and Judaism. I do have religious beliefs and they go hand in hand with all my other beliefs.
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Post by Ali Blue on Jan 2, 2006 19:02:33 GMT -5
Don't blame me if I don't believe in Lucy, because there have been many before her that have turned out to be fakes. of course, she could be real. every species has their weird ones. Whenever someone says evolution, I get the image of a little blob and then a fish, then an ape, then a human. I don't believe in that. One thing I do believe is that animals and humans form to their environments by God's design. I honestly don't know how old the earth is. it doesn't change what happened in the beginning, so it could be very very old.. I have no idea. I just go what I was raised with, what the Bible supports, and what I have learned. About time to God. (this is a little weird to think about..) I think that God is outside space and time, that He's just staring at it like a giant picture that He created. but that's just me, and we can never know for sure.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jan 2, 2006 22:44:09 GMT -5
You cannot believe the Bible and believe evolution, I'm afraid, because Genesis clearly describes the creation week. If you don't believe that what the Bible says is true, then you simply are not a Christian. I don't mean to offend, and I certainly don't go about to non-Christians rubbing in their faces. It's just a fact that is important to remember when discussing all of this.
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Post by Morgana Le Fay on Jan 5, 2006 10:00:07 GMT -5
First, I appreciate that none of you have tried to flame me yet. I understand that what I am saying is very different from what uyou were taught to believe. I believe this because it makes sense to me, as I will explain.
Second, I'd like to state that many different denominations of Christianity are represented here. Each interprets the Bible in its own way, leading to some very different perspectives of the same fundamental truths.
I feel I didn't explain this very well previously, so I shall try again.
I am NOT saying: We evolved from single celled creatures, or anything else for that matter. (The evolution theory has significant flaws in it and is not scientifically sound. There are parts of it that are accurate however.) That species can eveole into each other. That science is perfect and accurate the entire time.
I am stating that: Possibly God is not bound by the human concept of measuring time. Evolution, not the evolution thoery (two entirely different things) does exist and that God has made and used it.
1. Evolution Plants and creatures have the ability to adapt to the effects brought upon them by teh actions of other creatures. This is called evolution. I believe God made His creations able to do this to help them survive. They adapt to survive, they DO NOT spawn totally different speicies than themselves.
If this did not happen, how would you explain: Bugs, that after a few generations, are unaffected by pesticides? Strains of bacteria and viruses that adapt to become immune to our medical treatments?
That is what I believe evolution is.
Like Alistair said, creatures form their enviroments by God's design. What I am saying supports that. Evolving to meet changes in the enviroment is God's way of helping creatures and plants and bugs survive.
2 Time.
As I said before, measuring time is a human concept, based on the movements of the sun and moon. The Bible tells us the sun and moon were made in a day. Science tells us they are billions of years old. The only way I can make sense of what I am told to believe, and what there is evidence for, is by reasoning that God is not bound by our measurment of time. Before God made life, the universe and everything, there was nothing. If God uses our format of days and hpurs, based on the sun and moon, what could he have used to measure time? From that, I reason that God is not bound by our ways of measuring time, therefore, it is possible that He took millions of our years to make the universe.
3. Conclusion By using these concepts, I am trying to give a valid, scientific conclusion to God's existence. IF animals and plants evolve in small ways, but have never changed into different species, THEN God could have given creatures this fuction to help them survive. IF God is not bound by the human measurement of time, THEN He could have taken as long as He wanted (or needed) to make the Universe and its inhabitants, and any method He saw fit.
There is no way to prove all this correct. Like the Bible says, 'Who can know the mind of the Lord?'
Sidescript: I applaud you, Silver. You are absolutely right that people will believe what they want to, whether it is truly true or not because it is true to them. I have seen this for myself, and I am glad someone has too. Each person has a different sense of truth, as evidenced right here on this thread. You believe what you choose to believe. Don't change it unless you find something that makes more sense to you.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jan 5, 2006 15:30:37 GMT -5
1) Hey, mate...I'm sure you didn't mean this in a negative way, but please don't talk about 'what we've been taught to believe'. You're certainly not the first person to believe the way you do. In fact, I've had this entire debate before. But it's not as if anyone here thinks the way they do because someone told them to. The suggestion borderlines being offensive.
2) Erm...microevolution is proven. Christians and evolutionists agree on that. The fact that microevolution exists does not in any way prove macroevolution.
3) You are right to say that God is not limited by time. However, if you trust the Bible you have to realize that creation took place in one week. Genesis says that it did. It even tells us what measurement God was using to determine the length of a day: evening, and morning. Sunrise and sunset. Simple as that. As for our "old" sun and moon...just as Adam was created as and adult man, and Eve as an adult woman, the sun was created old and ready for its purpose. Of course, God was fully capable of creating using macroevolution. But the Bible tells us that He didn't.
I realize that none of the logic here applies to those of you who do not believe in the Bible as the infallible word of God...but I'm speaking specifically to Commander.
Humbly, ~J~
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