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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jan 2, 2006 20:10:06 GMT -5
Now here's a subject I can really get into. The subject of animals and whether or not they have a soul, whether or not they share the same thought processes, and whether or not they think, love, and generally...feel emotion.
I stated my opinions in the other thread (forget which one. Ev3l thread maybe?) I'd like to hear everyone elses' now.
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Post by Ali Blue on Jan 2, 2006 20:48:18 GMT -5
Here's my standing on animals: they have personalities. not souls. souls are what make humans in God's image. Animals can feel, they have emotions, feelings, they can love, and hate. They are intelligent, but not as intelligent as humans, otherwise they would be the ones with the giant civilizations and countries. I think God gave us animals to respect, take care of, and help us with our needs. We were meant to rule over the animals.
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Post by Master Warious on Jan 12, 2006 16:44:27 GMT -5
hm,mmmmm..... I'm gonna have to say...soul isn't the right word. Humans have souls and spirits. Animals have a spirit inside them which is how we are like them. God created a soul so we would be like Him.
If this is a matter of whether Animals can do worng or not I'd have to say "No, they can't. Not intentionally". Humans do wrong by intention most of the time or are influenced by those who intend things.
If this is a matter of animals being in heaven. I'd like to think so. I've lost some precious creatures that were close to me.
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Post by Trinity on Jan 12, 2006 21:40:04 GMT -5
Animals don't naturally know the difference between right and wrong like humans do. I mean, you can train them to know, but without training they wouldn't know if they were doing something wrong or not. To me, that is a reason to say that animals don't have souls. Plus, God made us in His own image, and that would also cause me to believe that we are different from animals in that we do have souls. Besides, I would like to think that God would have TOLD us that animals have souls. Now, I'm not God, so I don't know this for sure! I absolutely love animals, and I fully believe they are intelligent creatures who do have feelings and personalities. And I REALLY hope there are animals in heaven because I would miss them!
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Post by Ali Blue on Jan 14, 2006 22:29:10 GMT -5
I know!!! I would miss my kitty sooo bad... Silver: just asking, are you vegetarian?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jan 15, 2006 14:11:20 GMT -5
This is interesting. By what standards do you mean "Right and Wrong"? Human standards? Or animal standards. Animals do know right and wrong, but they respect the animal standards of such. Human laws and morals mean nothing to them.
People often human-ize animals. They forget to realize that animals live in their own worlds, with their own rules. One example I like to give is that of a poultry flock, because many can relate to that. They know that the pecking order is right. They know that trying to fight the alpha roo is wrong and has its consequences. They roosters know that mating with hens that don't belong to them is wrong. The hens know which spot is theirs for laying eggs and that laying eggs anywhere else is wrong. They know which order they must eat food and they know that crowing in the wrong order is wrong.
Those are all examples of right and wrong that I have personally witnessed and that I know exist. I have even been a part of them. I've been reprimanded many times for doing wrong within their flock. I've been reprimanded with a swift kick by a rooster for touching his girl, I've been reprimanded for crowing when I'm not supposed to (Yes, I crow with my roosters lol) I do have to follow their rules when working near them, especially with so many roosters with dagger like spurs around. I am the ruler though and any roosters that don't respect me get a kick in the butt. If they still don't cooperate, they leave the flock. We exist and we teach eachother what is right and wrong. I follow their rules, they follow mine.
I've seen other animals giving tons and tons of examples of knowing what's right and wrong. To many people they would see animals acting as animals, but to a few, they see it as an intricate balance of rules, society, right and wrong. I've seen one dog go to attack a human and another dog come and viciously attack that dog for doing so. The dog that attacked the other dog knows that what it was doing was wrong. I've seen vultures wait around a dead animal because they know it would be wrong to intrude on the animals that were there first. I've seen horses take turns standing guard over the others who are laying on the ground sleeping or injured. I've seen a herd of cows standing around the deceased body of their herd member, mourning. That was probably one of the most powerful things I've ever seen. There was a sadness in the air...and silence. Not one of the cows stirred or made noise. They simply stood around the body of their dead friend. Creepy in a way, but powerful none-the-less. I've also seen a goose abandone it's migrating flock to stay with an injured flockmate until it either regains it's health or dies. I've seen rats help a handicapped (blind, immobile, deaf) tank mate. I've seen a depressed hen mourn for her dead chick and I've seen a dog show remorse for something he killed accidentally. This actually happened when my dog accidentally ran over one of my baby chicks. He actually licked it to try and bring it back to life, but did not even make a motion to try and eat it. I didn't teach him this, he knew it was wrong that he had killed the chick. The chickens are part of his flock that he protects, and he natural knew when we got him that those are his. Killing one of them, even accidentally, was very, very wrong in his eyes. No one taught him that....it was simply natural.
I could go on and on and on, but hopefully you get an idea with some of these examples. Animals don't have to follow human right and wrongs. Do you follow the moral right and wrongs of a bird flock? Why should you if there is no reason for it? Why should they be expected to follow our rules and know what is right and wrong to us?
A lot of people tend to ask me this and I have to say I have a hard time answering. When I was little I was a real vegetarian, but I have to say it wasn't because I felt bad for the animals. It was actually because I found a bone in my chicken nugget. I think that traumatized me for life. I still cringe thinking about it. Not I do eat some meats, but I really don't like the taste of it. I like spiced meats and beef jerky. I like turkey and sometimes chicken. A lot of times I can taste the blood of the animal though and that turns me away from a lot of meats. I also hate the feeling of a "Chewy part" as I call them. People always think I'm nuts when I pick through my meat to find the perfect piece, but I have to do that before I eat it. I guess it's more of a habit than feeling bad for the animals.
I do believe americans do not treat their market animals with much care. Many of them suffer before being slaughtered and that makes me sad. If I could change that I would, but I'm in no way an animal rights activist like PETA. In fact I'm not fond PETA at all. I think there needs to be a balance between animal killed and eaten and human doing the eating, just as there is between predator animal and prey animal. I think people don't respect where their food comes from and that also makes me sad.
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Post by Tiana, eh? on Mar 10, 2006 1:06:12 GMT -5
...We should have a topic and discuss food somewhere else... snrk.
I don't believe that animals have souls. But it's an edgy topic for me; who knows what animals are really like, and such... some of them seem very human indeed. Which could thus turn to the topic of reincarnation (which I don't believe in... lol)
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Post by Padawan goober-shadowslayer on Apr 12, 2006 16:32:08 GMT -5
I think that animals have souls . . . I just do . . .
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Post by Barnzo on Apr 12, 2006 16:41:29 GMT -5
No, Goober. They don't. I am sorry, but they do not. It is, I am pretty sure, a Church teaching.
Sorry Goobs.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Apr 13, 2006 16:59:15 GMT -5
Clears throat. Then perhaps that is the reason they are better off. Perhaps a soul is man's downfall...man's punishment.
You cannot flat out say anything about faith and proclaim it to be true. Especially if you don't classify yourself as an animal. If you are not an animal, then how can you really know? Because someone tells you that's the way it is? Don't you ever question what is written in the books? I know I do.
I've been around animals for many, many, many years and I personally have to say they have something. Maybe it's not a soul, but it's something.
Do you ever get that empty feeling when looking at a dead person laying in a coffin at the viewing? Why is it that you get the same feeling when and animal dies? I've seen plenty of animals put to sleep at the vet's office to know how it feels when that "spirit" leaves an animal. Before they die, they have life in their eyes, in their bodies. You can see it if you really care to look deep. When they are dead, there's nothing.
Animal lovers feel connections with animals they know. Those who really love animals feel connections with all animals around them. It's similar to how a person who likes music feels when they listen to a piece they especially enjoy. Or the connection a writer feels after writing a really good story. I feel the same spiritual connection to both the people I love and the animals I love. THAT cannot be coincidence.
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Post by Padawan goober-shadowslayer on Apr 13, 2006 17:32:19 GMT -5
For one reason, I do not feel the same to see a dead human then a dead animal. I have to agree with barney.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Apr 14, 2006 7:52:37 GMT -5
That's fine. That's your opinion. It's when someone flat out says one thing is the truth that annoys me.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Apr 24, 2006 19:53:56 GMT -5
Silv, try not to be annoyed. After all, you "flat out say" that you can't have absolute truth, don't you? On topic, I think that the fact that God tells us it's okay to kill animals, but not to kill people is an important thing to think about. Would He have told us that it's okay to kill and eat animals if animals have souls? If you mean "soul" in the sense of the reasoning part of a person that allows him/her to be able to have communion with God...then the answer must be no. Anyone who knows and loves animals of any kind realizes that they do have things like affection, intelligence, a kind of logic, and sense of justice. We need to be careful in "humanizing" them, though...people love to see in others what they know about themselves, whether the "others" are humans or animals. Just having what we think of as "human-like" qualities doesn't make an animal able to have a relationship with Jesus Christ.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Apr 25, 2006 8:00:15 GMT -5
No, I believe there is an absolute truth, just not the ones that some of the people believe in here. I think there's more to the truth than simply what our religion tells us and I don't believe any one human is capable of knowing that truth. People on Earth are capable of theories, not of knowing the ENTIRE truth...or as some say it, the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Apr 25, 2006 10:07:43 GMT -5
That was my main point with that statement. Let's make sure every post relates to the topic, or get a topic split.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Apr 25, 2006 14:26:34 GMT -5
I was never truly annoyed in the first place. I said I get annoyed when people say certain things, I never said I was annoyed.
Exactly.
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Post by Padawan goober-shadowslayer on Apr 30, 2006 9:33:55 GMT -5
I think that animals are different beings than humans, so they do not have souls, at least not like humans...
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Post by Rûûnûîlûûûnûlîônû on May 7, 2006 9:38:43 GMT -5
I agree with you.
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Post by Tiana, eh? on May 7, 2006 16:45:38 GMT -5
No, I believe there is an absolute truth, just not the ones that some of the people believe in here. I think there's more to the truth than simply what our religion tells us and I don't believe any one human is capable of knowing that truth. People on Earth are capable of theories, not of knowing the ENTIRE truth...or as some say it, the answer to life, the universe, and everything. As you say it, no one human is capable of knowing it. Which is where trust and stuff come in. Faith, and all that rot, you know? And compairing against other stuff? But, per my other admin quoting me, stay on target, or get a topic split. Just so we don't have wars breaking out in threads... Edit: In case of misunderstanding, that wasn't all directed at Silver. Really. I just quoted her to reply to her.
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