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Post by MFB - That One Guy on Jun 20, 2005 13:01:57 GMT -5
Latin is cool...I am Methodist, and have some problems with the Catholic faith but all is in love here, so i present them lovingly. MFBV knows this. (PS Kira, I exalt you for starting a thread with a prayer. That's wepic and brave.) My fam, my mom's at least, prays before eating out and all. Just short, but heartfelt prayers. This is my problem with Catholism: case in point, the Name of the Cross. I don't know what it is, though it seems to be a something to recite. I was to a Catholic church once and was astounded by how much ritual it is. How much standing, sitting, standing, sitting, memorizing, and 'nonCatholics can't take Communion (and therefor be a part of the body of Christ, symbolically) because you're not good enough or something' there is. I think Christianity doesn't have to be like that. Where in the Bible is all these prayers you recite, and where does it say to worship saints? They're people. There's my beginning... Interesting. I never knew your religon exactly. I was under the impression that you and KT went to the same church...isn't she Evangelical? Let me try to explain to the best of my knowledge what the Mass is based upon. It's unfortunente that you had gone to a Novis Ordo Mass...the Latin is much more beautiful. The Mass is known as "The Sacrifice of the Mass," because we are...what was the word..."re-presenting" the infinite sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. To offer it again would be worthless, because the mertis of His sacrifice were infinite. So instead, we remember is in a special sort of "re-inactment" I suppose. Each part of the Mass pertains to a part of the Passion; the offitory, to Christ's trial and suffering before he takes up his Cross; the Canon, Christ's suffering and death on the Cross. Communion; His comming to bring the Good News to those waiting for Him. Many of the prayers we say come down from sacred tradition, most from the Apostles themselves. The Mass dates back to the early years after Christ's Assention. Back then it was different from now, however. But they still upheld the Consecration and Communion, which has always been the heart of the Mass. As for not being a part of the Mysical Body, or not being good enough, that could be very untrue, and likely, is. What I learned in my catechism is that, although we Catholics do teach that there is only Salvation through Christ and the Church, many non-Catholics will assuredly go to Heaven before many Catholics. It all depends on many things, which would be a lot to tell. Also, the Sign of the Cross is somewhat like a...trademark? lol We do it at the begining and end of each prayer. It's just to say that we offer this prayer in the name of the Trinity. Also, Catholicism as a whole is definently not based on rituals. We pray very much like you do, but we have some different options, like the Rosary, or Adoration. We still talk to God, come to Him with our troubles, ask for forgiveness, and adore His Name. Just sometimes we chose to do this in an external way as well; Confession, the Mass, Benediction, the Stations of the Cross, etc. And as for "worshiping" Saints, we definently do not. We ask for them to pray for us; something most Protestants don't believe in. Saints are people who are in heaven, and thus, are close to God. Mary is a Saint as well, so we do not worship her either. But because she's the greatest of all Saints, we reverence her in special ways. Besides, Sin never touched her soul; how could we not love her? I actually pity those who don't believe in Mary's Saintliness...her motherly love has helped me in many ways. Remember the Miricle at Cana? Well, Mary's requests still have such an influence of her Son as they did then.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jun 20, 2005 16:41:46 GMT -5
Oooooo...that was good MFB. Well said. *Applauds*
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Post by MFB - That One Guy on Jun 20, 2005 18:15:05 GMT -5
Thankee, Silver. I forgot to mention that I thought your's was very good as well.
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Post by Jareth on Jun 20, 2005 21:21:19 GMT -5
You are saying you don't pray to Mary? Wasn't Mary the chosen one? That makes her somewhat special I would think. Jesus was human too, yet we still worship him. special... hmmm.... I'm getting a thought here... well... technically, since God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are a trinity, then technically, the Holy Spirit was inside of her, and the Holy Spirit's inside of every Christian so shouldn't you be praying to every Christian? one other thing, the Bible isn't focused on Mary, if she was omnipotent, it would be.
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Post by Jareth on Jun 20, 2005 21:25:23 GMT -5
Interesting. I never knew your religon exactly. I was under the impression that you and KT went to the same church...isn't she Evangelical? shouldn't all Christians be evangelical? we all obey the Bible, so we should all obey the Great Commission, so we should all be evangelical. sorry... I'm getting caught up in little details
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Post by eoloth on Jul 9, 2005 16:51:01 GMT -5
Amazing. Truly amazing. I must compliment you all on keeping this thread running in my absence. As MFB and Silver have tried to answer your misgivings and misunderstandings, so will I. (they are doing a great job of it too.) First, the Sign of the Cross, is in itself, a prayer. Worship cannot be confined to internal prayers, we must also profess our beliefs outwardly. The Sign of the Cross gives us a way to do this. We must outwardly profess our beliefs because without an outward reminder of what God is and has done for us, our souls can tend to stray into indifference and laziness. We become weak and doubtful. Doubt is a most grievous sin against faith. The Sign of the Cross reminds us of Jesus' death for us...our redemption...and the Mystery of the Holy Trinity. We can make the sign of the cross at any time...it doesn't even have to precede a definite prayer. We can make the Sign of the Cross in times of happiness, sadness, and it's strength is manifested greatly when we make the Sign of the Cross in times of temptation.
Mass is tradition...I can understand how non-Catholics think the Mass is boring...just a bunch of ritual. The single most important part of the Mass...that which defines the Catholic Church from all other churches, is the Sacrifice of the Mass. It is called Transubstantiation. The bread and wine are substantially and essentially changed into the Body and Blood of Christ when the priest says, in accordance with the very words of Christ at the last supper, "Take this, all of you, and eat it; This is My Body, which will be given up for you." The priest raises the host and it is at this moment that that bread becomes the Body of Christ. For reference to the Bible, see Mt 26:26-28, and Mark 14:22-25. Referring to the Catechism of the Catholic Church as to why non-Catholics cannot receive Holy Eucharist, Article 1400 states that (please don't take offense) "Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, 'have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders." (I will continue in a moment, but Holy Orders is the sacrament by which seminarians are ordained as priests.) "It is for this reason that Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not possible for the Catholic Church. However these ecclesial communities, 'when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper...profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await His coming in glory." Going back to Cy's problem with rituals and where in the Bible they come from, I will say this: Before we go to receive Communion, the priest holds up the Body and Blood of Christ (in the form of bread and wine) and says, "Behold, this is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to this Supper." And the congregation replies, "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, only say the word and I shall be healed." These words are reminiscent of the words of the Roman centurion when he asks Christ to heal his servant. He says, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed." (Mt 8:8) Now, the words are almost exact...except that the centurion pleas on behalf of his servant and we plea on behalf of ourselves. Ok, that's all i have to say on that topic.
I am going to take time to say this. I mean only to try and enlighten you. I want you to understand so much. So if it feels like I am going too far with this, I apologize. Here is something else I wish to quote to you from the Catechism. Article 818. "'...one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers...All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.'" Sadly, many of the people in the Catholic Church (this is a matter of my own opinion...it isn't a fact) have either become too indifferent to care about what faith they belong to, or, if they be strong Catholics, many tend to be unwelcoming toward Protestants. That is one thing the Catholic Church lacks. If I were to walk into a non-Catholic Church, I would likely be welcomed and hand-shook until my arm fell off! There is a loving open community. Catholics lack that, sometimes. If a non-Catholic were to walk into my Church, they might get greeted by the greeters...but that is to say formally, "good morning" and no more. There is a rigidity about it that makes the Catholic Church seem bitter toward Protestants...and I don't like that. It is something that discredits the Catholic Church.
Ok, back to the debate. About saints. This is one of the most commonly disputed topics between Catholics and non-Catholics. There is a HUGE difference between 'worship' and 'praying to'. period. Do not confuse the honor we give to saints with the honor we give to God. Even in what we plea, there is a difference. "Jesus Christ, have mercy on us." and "St. Maria Goretti, pray for us." But first, let's start at the top. Why is it right to honor the saints? (the following are quotes from Catholic Morality, by Father Laux) "1. We honor virtuous men on earth, why should we deny honor to the Saints in Heaven, who practiced virtue in such a sublime degree?
2. By honoring the Saints we honor God Himself; for what the Saints are and have they owe to God.
3. God Himself honors the Saints more than we can ever honor them. 'Where I am,' says Our Lord, 'there also shall My servant be; if any man minister to Me, him will My Father honor.' (John 12:26)
4. From the first centuries the Angels and Saints were honored by the Church. In a letter on the martyrdom of St. Polycarp (A.D. 167) the Church of Smyrna declared: 'We adore the Son of God, but we honor His martyrs as the disciples and followers of Our Lord, for their exquisite love of their king and master.' In his First Apology St. Justin Martyr [O.O.C.-my patron saint!!] writes: 'We honor God the Father and the Son and the host of blessed spirits.' From the most ancient times the Church has instituted festivals, and built churches and altars in commemoration of the Saints.
(still quoting Father Laux) It is useful for salvation to honor the Saints because this practice incites us to imitate their example and to strive to become like them, that we may also one day share their eternal happiness. We must never confuse the honor we pay to the Saints with the Divine honor we pay to God alone: 1. We honor and adore God alone as our sovereign Lord and the Author of all good things; we honor the Saints only as His faithful servats and friends. 2. We kneel down, it is true, when we venerate the Saints; but we do not adore the Saints any more than a courtier adores his king when on his knees he asks a favor of him. 3.We consecrate churches and altars, and offer the Holy Sacrifice to God alone, although at the same time we honor the memory of the Saints and implore their intercession. 4. We honor God for His own sake, on account of the infinite perfection which He has of Himself; we honor the Saints on accounnt of the gifts and advantages which they have received from Him. I shall now defer as to the question of honoring the saints...I have more about why we pray to them, but I'll save that for another post.
Why we honor Mary above all the Saints and Angels: (again quoting Father Laux) 1. Christ Himself honored her in a special way. 2. The Archangel Gabriel greeted her with the words: 'Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women.' 3.St. Elizabeth [Mary's cousin] cried out in awe and reverence: 'Whence is this to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?' 4.Mary's prophetic words: 'From henceforth all generations shall call me blessed,' have been unceasingly fulfilled throughout the history of the Church. 5. Mary alone, of all her race, was privileged to co-operate in the work of Redemption by her own free will and choice: 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.' [Mary saying her fiat.] 6. Christ was obedient to His Mother here on earth, and He surely will not refuse her anything now that she is with Him in Heaven. (end of Father Laux...beginning of my own stuff) We are to try and imitate Christ. He Himself commissioned us to follow Him. He honored His father and mother; why should we not honor them as well if we are to follow Him? And (this one may seem harsh, but please know that I am striving to write all this lovingly and gently) If she is good enough for Christ, why shouldn't she be good enough for you.
I have said enough...perhaps too much. I truly care about you all, and wish you to understand...else I would not have spent this much time and effort to aid you. I love you all. continue to post!
In Christ, He who lives in us all, Empress Kira of Lorien
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Post by eoloth on Jul 9, 2005 16:59:56 GMT -5
well... technically, since God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are a trinity, then technically, the Holy Spirit was inside of her, and the Holy Spirit's inside of every Christian so shouldn't you be praying to every Christian? This one will be short...but I had to quote and clear up Jareth's view. There is something Mary had that no other person had. God gave her a special grace. It is why we call her Immaculate Mary. He gave her the grace to be without sin. She was born without original sin, and also actual sin. Original sin is what all of us inherited from Adam and Eve, actual sin is the sin we do ourselves. She was without both. That is why we honor her above the saints and above other people. Mary was freed from sin because she was chosen by God to participate in the Redemption. It is fitting that a temple wholly free from blemish or stain should hold and contain the God of all the Universe, the Alpha and Omega, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, Emmanuel, Jesus Christ, Lamb of God, Bread of Life, Author and Creator and Finisher of all Life, the Word made Flesh, the Holy of Holies, the great I AM, the Redeemer, the second Adam, the New Covenant, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the Almighty, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, etc. etc. hopefully that cleared it up a bit. ;D
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Post by Cy Otauna on Jul 24, 2005 9:55:56 GMT -5
Ok...I see the point about how praying to saints is like praying to all Christians though. If we speak to Mary, why not, well, everybody? Hm...we all have the Spirit within us, but none of us are teh divinity of the Trinity. None of us are perfect. (I, for example, aam having a keyboard cyrsee moment, lol) KT goes to a CMA or 'Alliance' church, which focuses on evangelism. I too believe that all churches should do as much as they can to spread the Word, as should the individuals within them. MFB, my dad's family goes to a Methodist church and I went there for my first twelve years or so. Now I live with mom on Sundays, and she goes to church with KT's family. The doctrines are prety much the same.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jul 24, 2005 19:03:20 GMT -5
Precisely! : )
Ummm...well, aren't they both Methodist churches...? *confused*
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Post by eoloth on Jul 27, 2005 13:54:41 GMT -5
sry, but did you two miss the last answer I gave to Jareth? I'm confused...
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jul 27, 2005 22:05:37 GMT -5
I may have said this already, but latin is way awesome. Many of the X-Files episodes are named in latin and many of the sayings in the episodes were latin. I know a bit from watching that show (The years spent doing so weren't completely pointless).
*End of pointlessness*
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Post by Caffeinerush on Jul 28, 2005 12:42:26 GMT -5
"But because she's the greatest of all Saints, we reverence her in special ways. Besides, Sin never touched her soul; how could we not love her? I actually pity those who don't believe in Mary's Saintliness...her motherly love has helped me in many ways."
"He gave her the grace to be without sin. She was born without original sin, and also actual sin. Original sin is what all of us inherited from Adam and Eve, actual sin is the sin we do ourselves. She was without both."
I don't agree with those statements, almost completely because you don't give any references to actual scripture or recordings. Where does it say that Mary had no sin in the Bible? I'm not saying it doesn't, but I'd like to read it, and not just take it for granted.
Also, the Catholic church seems to have a lack of freedom. In my church, we do what the Lord tells us to do, although we fall back on the basic service when nothing needs to be changed. Where the spirit of the lord is, there is freedom.
"some "Christians" believe in the Hindu religion, and some think that man is just great and dandy and everyone's going to heaven"
Yeah, and they aren't exactly "Christians" since they believe in another god. Its against one of the fundemental rules in the 10 commandments.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jul 28, 2005 19:38:40 GMT -5
Right on, CR.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on Jul 28, 2005 19:52:12 GMT -5
Er... in the hindu religion you get reincarnated when you die. You need to get your sources straight CR.
And I think its a good thought if everybody could get into heavan, I mean that would be awesome. But of course I think things that are majorly different from most of you. I mean, I think God is a little bit more flexable than just Christians go to heaven, everybody else goes to hell, I'm pretty sure theres middle ground.
I was confirmed a catholic and I understand what EKL is saying, even if I don't beleive it. Everybody sins, its going to happen if you have free will, the only way you could not have sin is if you have no free will and do only what God wants down to the last detail.
And thats my two cents.
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Post by Caffeinerush on Jul 28, 2005 20:00:50 GMT -5
"Er... in the hindu religion you get reincarnated when you die. You need to get your sources straight CR." I'm pretty sure you need to read my post again, becuase I really don't know where you get that from. Unless you picked up a hidden meaning I didn't even figure out Edit: Oh, I think you mistook the Hinduism quote for my own words. Its not. There's not too much in the way of middle ground. You have to accept Jesus as your savior in all christianity forms I know of, although I could be wrong.
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Fear Daughter
Ranger of the North
We will find the infidels. And we will give them agony undying...
Posts: 82
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Post by Fear Daughter on Jul 28, 2005 21:02:53 GMT -5
How so? How can there be a middle ground? What part of "no other gods" makes you think that there's a middle ground, Faust?
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jul 28, 2005 21:07:55 GMT -5
Middle ground is...er...Earth? Maybe... could be plausible. Perhaps thus spawns the name "Middle Earth". I dunno *shrugs*
I'm too eveloped in other things to think about this very hard.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jul 28, 2005 21:12:04 GMT -5
Forgive me, but...why did you post if you're too busy to think about it??? 'Cause I'm all ears...so to speak...if you want to explain that statement...
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Post by Ali Blue on Jul 28, 2005 21:16:04 GMT -5
there can't be a middle ground. everyone sins, and it's those who recognize their sin and repent of it that go to heaven. it would be great if we could all go to heaven, but God can't stand sin, literally, he cannot lay his eyes upon it. but if you repent, then Jesus' blood covers it.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jul 28, 2005 21:47:30 GMT -5
You guys are so uptight on this topic!
"Forgive me, but...why did you post if you're too busy to think about it??? 'Cause I'm all ears...so to speak...if you want to explain that statement..."
Well, if you'd care for me to explain why I'm too busy to think about explaining the middle ground, I can do that.
First of all I have fair starting on Tuesday. Today I drove a half hour to the fair grounds, stayed there for a few hours working my butt off and then I drove home, went to a friends house to pack up his stuff, print out important documents for fair, and to collect a bunch of other stuff I need. After that I got back to my house, put together two fair boards, collected all the supplies for my horse, poultry, and rabbit, fed the animals, went inside, ate, worked on another presentation board, drove my friend home, printed out more papers and prepared more stuff for fair. Tomorrow I have to make two separate tirps to the fair grounds. That means I will be driving for two hours. One to pull my camper and the other to drive back up, pick up cages, and put the camper in place. Then I have to finish a club fair board, pack my clothes, and clean up the chickens. Saturday I have to bath my horse, pack up all her stuff in the car, pack up my chickens and rabbits, and finish packing the rest of my stuff. Sunday I have to make three or four separate trips in the car to the fairgrounds. I have to trailor my friend's and my horse up, all the poultry, the rest of the stuff for the camper, my horticulture, my arts and crafts, and all the vet science and other junk I have to set up in the 4-H building.
In between all this, I have to work around my dad's schedule and his being sick. Which means I will be doing most of the driving and I have to rely on a friend to bring up all the other stuff I can't fit in the truck. Not too mention I also have to take care of all the animals here.
I have also been occupied with thoughts of X-Files. I love the X-Files and I would rather discuss that than religion anyways. SO, I am off thinking about it on other message forums. I don't really belong in the religion forum anyways. The only reason I check up on it still is because I am a mod...and I find it interesting to read what you guys write. I figured I'd keep the air a bit lighter than it normally ends up getting to be. It's summer, don't be so hard on yourselves.
Now you know why I am too busy to think about the answer to the question.
Beware when prompting for answers not so readily available. ;-)
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