Post by eoloth on Apr 5, 2006 21:52:17 GMT -5
wow. I have sooo much to reply to, this is literally insane. For some reason i nearly feel like weeping. I just really want you people to know the truth, whether or not you agree with it, because i read your posts and see you searching for truth, arguing about truth, wondering how to find truth, and thinking it's all relative, that religion and its interpretation is all sort of a "every man for himself" thing. "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." (Jn 8:32) Please, please recognize that I started this thread with the object of spreading the truth, and perhaps enlightening people about what Catholics really believe. I don’t think this has turned nasty, but I do believe that all those who are arguing are really giving us Catholics a run for our money. In my opinion this conversation/debate strengthens my faith and motivates me to find out more about how to defend my faith.
Oh, just out of curiosity, Commander--are you Catholic?
I'll start from the beginnings. Sheesh, you all should read the papers I have to write for religion, papers defending religion in logical order: the existence of God, Jesus' claims as God, Him justifying those claims, establishing a Church, and reasoning that the Church he established is the Catholic Church. Anyhoo, here's the things that stick out most for me as differences between Catholics and other denominations of Christians. By no means do I think that Catholics aren't Christians, and I hope none of you think that either.
Here's the major controversial stuff:
Purgatory, Papal Primacy and Infallibility, Marian Devotion and the Sinlessness of Mary, Saints' Intercession, Continual Salvation (as opposed to the "Have you been saved?" salvation in the past tense), Reliance on both Scripture and Tradition, and the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
To start. A common misconception is that Catholics believe everything the Pope says is infallible, and that he cannot err. This is a true misconception. As I said before, the Pope can be infallible only when he is clearly defining a doctrine of the Church that has been already well established, just not formally declared. The Immaculate Conception is an example of this. Everyone regarded Mary as sinless, and it was just a formal declaration of it to seal the doctrine with the Pope’s infallible seal. He cannot proclaim just anything as infallible doctrine. Next, as aforementioned, ppl think Catholics believe the Pope cannot err/sin. NOT TRUE! *calms down* Just as (for those who believe this) God kept the men who wrote the Bible from making mistakes, and writing only what He wished them to write, so too, God can keep the Pope from erring on doctrinal beliefs. Papal authority was promised by Christ to Peter and all His successors. (For more information on this topic, "ask and ye shall receive") (And yes, there have been so-called "bad Popes" but does this not profess that perhaps God so ordained them to been less than holy and goodly men to show that we should rely on God's perfection, and that He is the true Ruler and Head of the Church, though He is invisible?)
I think that the Catholic Church is the only Church that believes everything She does, and that is why it is so discussed and demoralized. Catholics are the only ones who profess to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. These words mean that the Catholic Church believes it is the one and only true Church, the only one through which salvation can be attained (whether you are a member of the Catholic Church or sincerely strive to do all you can for salvation, and not physically belonging to the Catholic Church through no fault of your own (its not your fault you aren't a part of the CHurch...you didn't know about it...etc.)thus attaining the Baptism of Desire, and thus becoming an "invisible" member of the Church) The term "Catholic" in our profession means that we recognize the Catholic Church is the universal Church, the Church that is for all ages, and all people. The term "apostolic" means that the Church believes that it is the Church founded on the apostles, the first Church, the Church that Christ founded.
where to start next. Ah, the "Bible alone" theory. I believe someone said that Catholics don't really take the Bible literally. This, in my opinion, is a sad misconception. Yes, many, many Catholics do not read or memorize the Bible, but that doesn't mean that Catholics don't use the Bible or take it literally. Any Catholic who goes to Mass every Sunday gets a chance to hear the entire Bible over a period of three years. Of course, this doesn't mean that Catholics actually listen, study, and understand the Scriptures they read or hear, but they could, if they wanted to take the time to enter a Catholic Bible study. Regardless, this is one Catholic who is desperately trying to reverse the concept of Catholic Biblical illiteracy. I try to snatch up any time I can to understand the Bible and understand how the Church interprets it. Now, I should think it rather comical if it turned out that the verses I give you might favor that Catholics are the only people who take the whole Bible literally. (I know that sounds rather judgmental and horrible, please forgive me if it offends or hurts someone) This time I will write the verses from both the Catholic NAB and the Protestant NIV, if there is any major variance between them.
2 Thess. 2:15 "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." NIV states: "Brothers and sisters, stand firm. HOld on to what we taught you. We passed our teachings on to you by what we preached and wrote." Now anyone could say that in the second version of the verse, that preached and wrote were all the same thing, because they are not distinctly separate. But I think the NAB (Catholic) version is clearer to see that oral statements and letters are different and not the same thing.
John 21:25 "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if theses were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." NIV version is rather the same. Both attest that we cannot know all about CHrist's teachings/actions from the Bible alone. We must have the authority of the Church to rely on, the apostolic Church which has faithfully preserved all the teachings of Christ, both in written Scripture and in Tradition.
1 Pet. 1:20 (This is a great Bible verse telling us that the written Scripture cannot be left to individual interpretation. That is why Catholics have the unbroken historical authority of the Papacy to rely on in this matter of interpretation.) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." NIV version: "Above all, here is what you must understand. NO prophecy in Scripture ever came from a prophet's own understanding. It never came simply because a prophet wanted it to, Instead, the Holy Spirit guided the prophets as they spoke. So prophecy comes from God."
I will also use the use of reason to establish why it is necessary that humans have an infallible authority to rely on. We can all understand that we all don't have enough time, talent, or otherwise to know everything there is to know about any one thing. We don't have all the faculties to be able to know all about Catholicism, or God, or religion in general. Thus, we must rely on some sort of authority, someone who can tell us under good authority that this is true, this is false, this is right, this is wrong. Obviously, we are all born with an innate sense of right and wrong. This is Natural Law. But in order to form our consciences to know what is good/bad/right/wrong for the trickier things, we need to have a higher trustworthy authority. Yes, God can tell this to us, but how many of us regularly hear Him say, "Dearest, Purgatory is real" or "premarital relations really are wrong" or "being homosexual isn't part of My plan, and it isn't part of what is right"? No, we need a reliable authority on earth. That, for Catholics is the Papacy.
History tells us this too. Any time that men relied on their own judgment about interpretation of Christ's teachings, they wound up breaking up, separating themselves, becoming what is now the hundreds (maybe thousands) of denominations of "Christian" churches. Some of these have little left of Christ's teachings.
Again, i don't mean to offend people, I just want to tell the truth. Not how I see it, but how the Church sees it, how God sees it. I don't have time to write out all the 8 other Purgatory verses I promised, but I'll list the places they're found in the Bible. I'll also give you the Nicene Creed, a Catholic Creed that is said at every Sunday Mass and every Holy Day of Obligation, and some important feast days. I'll also detail a creed that I think all (or most) Christians agree on and believe. But Bible verses first.
Mt 5:26
Mt 12:32
Mt 12:36
2 Macc. 12:44-46 (Not to be found in most Protestant Bibles)
1 Cor 3:15
1 Pet 3:18-20 AND 4:6
2 Tim. 1:16-18
1Cor 15:29-30
Also, I know that Mt 12:32 has been much referred to, that is, the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit. Frankly, I don't think everyone here knows exactly what that sin is. *runs to get religion book which states it* I am quoting Fr. Laux in Mass and the Sacraments"Obstinate resistance to the grace of God calling the sinner to repentance is the sin against the Holy Ghost which can never be forgiven, because not even God can forgive sins without repentance on the part of the sinner." Earlier it states thus: "The blasphemy of the Scribes, to which Our Lord alludes, consisted in this: they obstinately and maliciously attributed to Satan works which only God could perform. Such a sin, says Our Lord, 'has no forgiveness'; not that God does not give the sinner sufficient grace to repent...but Christ foresees that such a sin will never as a matter of fact be repented of and therefore never forgiven."
The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God, the Father the Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of GOd, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God, from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and ofr our salvation He came down from heaven: bow by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man end of bow For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again if fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heavn and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds form the Father and the Son, with the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified.l He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in on holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Here is a sort of creed that I think all of us Christians believe. If anyone has anything to add, perhaps we shall revise it.
We believe in One God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three persons in one God.
We believe that Jesus Christ was born of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, that He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
We believe that He rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father.
We believe that He will come again in glory at the end of the world to judge mankind.
We believe in life everlasting.
Amen.
Hopefully this last creed will remind us of how we are bound together. And let us remember, that Christ is present in each and every person, be he (or she) a Christian, Catholic, beggar, Buddist, atheist, whatever. Let us remember that we Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our distinctions and differences. Let us remember that Christ loved us first, that we might love others and love each other. May questions here be answered, and may we all find joy in Christ. Together. May God grant us light and truth and love, to proceed in this discussion with His grace ever leading us in a good manner. Amen.
Oh, just out of curiosity, Commander--are you Catholic?
I'll start from the beginnings. Sheesh, you all should read the papers I have to write for religion, papers defending religion in logical order: the existence of God, Jesus' claims as God, Him justifying those claims, establishing a Church, and reasoning that the Church he established is the Catholic Church. Anyhoo, here's the things that stick out most for me as differences between Catholics and other denominations of Christians. By no means do I think that Catholics aren't Christians, and I hope none of you think that either.
Here's the major controversial stuff:
Purgatory, Papal Primacy and Infallibility, Marian Devotion and the Sinlessness of Mary, Saints' Intercession, Continual Salvation (as opposed to the "Have you been saved?" salvation in the past tense), Reliance on both Scripture and Tradition, and the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
To start. A common misconception is that Catholics believe everything the Pope says is infallible, and that he cannot err. This is a true misconception. As I said before, the Pope can be infallible only when he is clearly defining a doctrine of the Church that has been already well established, just not formally declared. The Immaculate Conception is an example of this. Everyone regarded Mary as sinless, and it was just a formal declaration of it to seal the doctrine with the Pope’s infallible seal. He cannot proclaim just anything as infallible doctrine. Next, as aforementioned, ppl think Catholics believe the Pope cannot err/sin. NOT TRUE! *calms down* Just as (for those who believe this) God kept the men who wrote the Bible from making mistakes, and writing only what He wished them to write, so too, God can keep the Pope from erring on doctrinal beliefs. Papal authority was promised by Christ to Peter and all His successors. (For more information on this topic, "ask and ye shall receive") (And yes, there have been so-called "bad Popes" but does this not profess that perhaps God so ordained them to been less than holy and goodly men to show that we should rely on God's perfection, and that He is the true Ruler and Head of the Church, though He is invisible?)
I think that the Catholic Church is the only Church that believes everything She does, and that is why it is so discussed and demoralized. Catholics are the only ones who profess to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. These words mean that the Catholic Church believes it is the one and only true Church, the only one through which salvation can be attained (whether you are a member of the Catholic Church or sincerely strive to do all you can for salvation, and not physically belonging to the Catholic Church through no fault of your own (its not your fault you aren't a part of the CHurch...you didn't know about it...etc.)thus attaining the Baptism of Desire, and thus becoming an "invisible" member of the Church) The term "Catholic" in our profession means that we recognize the Catholic Church is the universal Church, the Church that is for all ages, and all people. The term "apostolic" means that the Church believes that it is the Church founded on the apostles, the first Church, the Church that Christ founded.
where to start next. Ah, the "Bible alone" theory. I believe someone said that Catholics don't really take the Bible literally. This, in my opinion, is a sad misconception. Yes, many, many Catholics do not read or memorize the Bible, but that doesn't mean that Catholics don't use the Bible or take it literally. Any Catholic who goes to Mass every Sunday gets a chance to hear the entire Bible over a period of three years. Of course, this doesn't mean that Catholics actually listen, study, and understand the Scriptures they read or hear, but they could, if they wanted to take the time to enter a Catholic Bible study. Regardless, this is one Catholic who is desperately trying to reverse the concept of Catholic Biblical illiteracy. I try to snatch up any time I can to understand the Bible and understand how the Church interprets it. Now, I should think it rather comical if it turned out that the verses I give you might favor that Catholics are the only people who take the whole Bible literally. (I know that sounds rather judgmental and horrible, please forgive me if it offends or hurts someone) This time I will write the verses from both the Catholic NAB and the Protestant NIV, if there is any major variance between them.
2 Thess. 2:15 "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." NIV states: "Brothers and sisters, stand firm. HOld on to what we taught you. We passed our teachings on to you by what we preached and wrote." Now anyone could say that in the second version of the verse, that preached and wrote were all the same thing, because they are not distinctly separate. But I think the NAB (Catholic) version is clearer to see that oral statements and letters are different and not the same thing.
John 21:25 "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if theses were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." NIV version is rather the same. Both attest that we cannot know all about CHrist's teachings/actions from the Bible alone. We must have the authority of the Church to rely on, the apostolic Church which has faithfully preserved all the teachings of Christ, both in written Scripture and in Tradition.
1 Pet. 1:20 (This is a great Bible verse telling us that the written Scripture cannot be left to individual interpretation. That is why Catholics have the unbroken historical authority of the Papacy to rely on in this matter of interpretation.) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." NIV version: "Above all, here is what you must understand. NO prophecy in Scripture ever came from a prophet's own understanding. It never came simply because a prophet wanted it to, Instead, the Holy Spirit guided the prophets as they spoke. So prophecy comes from God."
I will also use the use of reason to establish why it is necessary that humans have an infallible authority to rely on. We can all understand that we all don't have enough time, talent, or otherwise to know everything there is to know about any one thing. We don't have all the faculties to be able to know all about Catholicism, or God, or religion in general. Thus, we must rely on some sort of authority, someone who can tell us under good authority that this is true, this is false, this is right, this is wrong. Obviously, we are all born with an innate sense of right and wrong. This is Natural Law. But in order to form our consciences to know what is good/bad/right/wrong for the trickier things, we need to have a higher trustworthy authority. Yes, God can tell this to us, but how many of us regularly hear Him say, "Dearest, Purgatory is real" or "premarital relations really are wrong" or "being homosexual isn't part of My plan, and it isn't part of what is right"? No, we need a reliable authority on earth. That, for Catholics is the Papacy.
History tells us this too. Any time that men relied on their own judgment about interpretation of Christ's teachings, they wound up breaking up, separating themselves, becoming what is now the hundreds (maybe thousands) of denominations of "Christian" churches. Some of these have little left of Christ's teachings.
Again, i don't mean to offend people, I just want to tell the truth. Not how I see it, but how the Church sees it, how God sees it. I don't have time to write out all the 8 other Purgatory verses I promised, but I'll list the places they're found in the Bible. I'll also give you the Nicene Creed, a Catholic Creed that is said at every Sunday Mass and every Holy Day of Obligation, and some important feast days. I'll also detail a creed that I think all (or most) Christians agree on and believe. But Bible verses first.
Mt 5:26
Mt 12:32
Mt 12:36
2 Macc. 12:44-46 (Not to be found in most Protestant Bibles)
1 Cor 3:15
1 Pet 3:18-20 AND 4:6
2 Tim. 1:16-18
1Cor 15:29-30
Also, I know that Mt 12:32 has been much referred to, that is, the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit. Frankly, I don't think everyone here knows exactly what that sin is. *runs to get religion book which states it* I am quoting Fr. Laux in Mass and the Sacraments"Obstinate resistance to the grace of God calling the sinner to repentance is the sin against the Holy Ghost which can never be forgiven, because not even God can forgive sins without repentance on the part of the sinner." Earlier it states thus: "The blasphemy of the Scribes, to which Our Lord alludes, consisted in this: they obstinately and maliciously attributed to Satan works which only God could perform. Such a sin, says Our Lord, 'has no forgiveness'; not that God does not give the sinner sufficient grace to repent...but Christ foresees that such a sin will never as a matter of fact be repented of and therefore never forgiven."
The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God, the Father the Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of GOd, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God, from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and ofr our salvation He came down from heaven: bow by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man end of bow For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again if fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heavn and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds form the Father and the Son, with the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified.l He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in on holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Here is a sort of creed that I think all of us Christians believe. If anyone has anything to add, perhaps we shall revise it.
We believe in One God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three persons in one God.
We believe that Jesus Christ was born of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, that He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
We believe that He rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father.
We believe that He will come again in glory at the end of the world to judge mankind.
We believe in life everlasting.
Amen.
Hopefully this last creed will remind us of how we are bound together. And let us remember, that Christ is present in each and every person, be he (or she) a Christian, Catholic, beggar, Buddist, atheist, whatever. Let us remember that we Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our distinctions and differences. Let us remember that Christ loved us first, that we might love others and love each other. May questions here be answered, and may we all find joy in Christ. Together. May God grant us light and truth and love, to proceed in this discussion with His grace ever leading us in a good manner. Amen.