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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 22, 2005 18:22:04 GMT -5
"Truth, as is religion, is altered by a person's view."
How true that is...
No one can force you to believe truth if you believe something totally different. Truth IS altered by perspective. There may be only one truth, but that doesn't mean people have to live by it. It doesn't even necessarily make it true.
For example:
I'm sure everyone has been asked to tell the truth about something. When you told the truth, you told what you truly believed happened. That doesn't mean it is what happened, but to you it is your truth. Another person telling their story of truthmay have a totally different story. That doesn't mean they are lying, it simply means they have a different perspective of the truth.
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Post by sblomietheinsane on May 22, 2005 20:17:32 GMT -5
If you believe a cow is a horse, does that change the cow? No! If I think I'm a turtle, am I a turtle? No! If you say you have a million dollars in your backpack, does that mean you have a million dollars in your backpack? No! Truth cannot be relative, what is cannot be changed by what people think, say or believe. Truth is final and unchangeable whether or not you decide to live by it.
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 22, 2005 20:38:12 GMT -5
Truth IS relative. Hook a Muslim person up to a lie detector, okay? Then ask him if his religion is right. Do the same with someone from almost any religion and guess what? All will give you the same answer: "It is true that my religion is right"
And its not just religion, its the same with almost everything! 250 years ago almost everybody knew it was true that the world was flat.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 23, 2005 7:57:06 GMT -5
Wooo! Good post Faust!!
I really think what you said about the lie detector is a great analogy! The same goes for the "world is flat" bit.
many years ago, I would've been told it is the ABSOLUTE truth that the world was flat. Was that the truth? Now we know it wasn't. Did people believe it was the truth? Yes they did...
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 23, 2005 10:39:33 GMT -5
But that still doesn't mean that it was ever actually true that the world was flat. We know that the world never was flat. People in the past were deceived. So is that sincere, honest Muslim person you mentioned. Wrong, just plain wrong...but not lying.
Now, a question...would it have been possible for the Muslim man to lie in answer to a question? Would it be possible for me to tell you that the world is flat, even when I know it's round? I'll make my point in a later post...
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Post by sblomietheinsane on May 23, 2005 11:15:44 GMT -5
Yes people believed it was true the world was flat but it wasn't. It didn't change just because something was believed about it. Truth is NOT what you think or believe, but what IS. How truth be relative? It makes no sense. Truth is that the world is round. Truth is that I breath. Truth is that my mother has hair. Truth is that I am typing on this laptop. Truth is that God created the world. Truth is that God loves you. Truth is that Christ died for you.
[glow=red,2,300]What you believe about truth does not change what it is.[/glow]
Yes, but say I hook my hypothetical son up to a lie detector. Now I know for a fact he stole $5 from my wallet yesterday-say I saw him. So I ask him, "Son, did you steal $5 from my wallet yesterday?" and he answers, "No, Mom, I did not steal $5 from your wallet yesterday." Does that mean he didn't? If he really believes he did not steal $5 from my wallet, does that mean he didn't? Does that mean I'm lying, or he is lying? Does that mean we both are correct?
This is a real question: If I believe I'm a turtle, does that make me a turtle? Will I metamorphose into a turtle?
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 23, 2005 14:21:55 GMT -5
*sigh* We aren't saying "I've got a donut in my hand" and poof a donut appears in my hand! We are saying that truth is relative to your point of view!
Example: I've been brought up to believe a cat is called a dog! I meet you on the street and a stray animal runs in front of us. I yell "Catch that dog!" and you yell "Catch that cat!". Who is right?
Tell that to the people in the mental ward who beleive they are turtle. They would actually beleive they are turtles. In some extreme cases the mind alters reality so you'd actually see things like a turtle would, or even see your skin as green. Its been documented. (not with people as turtles, but theres been a case where a person looks in the mirror and see themself as Elvis, hair, face, etc. They beleive they are Elvis. And if you say they aren't then they call you a liar.)
I'll say it again: We aren't saying it changes we are saying truth is reletive!
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Post by Jandalf on Toast on May 23, 2005 14:53:00 GMT -5
Whew. Okay...
I agree with that. It's the way things work. It's the way I've learned things work. In fact, my school teachers and my parents and all the books I've read that deal with the matter have taught me that it works in such a way. And if they were lying? I would THINK it was true. But it wouldn't be. I would perceive it as truth, but only in my own reality. The point I was trying to make was that a person's reality can distort their thought in many different ways. One's reality can help a person to perceive things as they actually are, or it can muddy their focus. Keeping with this vision thing, reality is like a lens that we peer through, that we can adjust ourselves, and often do on the recommendation of others. Truth is what lies behind the lens, what we're peering through at. Depending on what we've done to this reality-lens, truth will either be blurry or in focus. I believe the Bible to be a guide to focusing this lens properly, to set our eyes on the path before us in the right way.
Exactly.
I've made it quite clear that I disagree with that statement in truth's case. But religion? Yes, it's altered by perspective. It's a thing that is easily adaptable to anyone's lifestyle and reality. That's why I don't believe in following after religion. Religion does not define truth. It can be made to follow after truth, but it generally falls down along a road of self-destruction. Religion brings about a focus of fear of punishment, while faith through relationship with God brings about a focus of grace and acceptance. I know which I prefer to follow. It's much more difficult attaining a personal relationship with God when one's focused on being a religious Christian, and I believe that once you have that relationship, truth and everything besides falls into place. It's become much clearer for me in the process of getting to know Him. I don't profess to have the most intimate relationship yet, but what I've discovered thus far is way more incentive than I need to continue.
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Post by sblomietheinsane on May 23, 2005 15:12:38 GMT -5
Okay, sorry, I got a little out of hand in my last post. I do apologize. Of course, Jandalf, I agree and beyond with everything you say.
I think the problem here is our actual definition of what truth is. I define it as the essence of something; person, thing, idea, etc: what something is and cannot be changed (i.e. I hvae fingernails).
Silver and Faust, from what I've heard, it seems you believe truth is a person's idea of what something is (i.e. I think that is a shoe, not a dress). Is that right? Correct me if I'm wrong. From my definition, truth cannot be relative. But from your point, it has to be relative.
And I know about that sort of extreme mental case, but my point was although I or anyone else thinks they are a turtle, they are not, are they?
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Post by JoA on May 23, 2005 17:00:22 GMT -5
It's not fair for Silver and Faust to have to defend themselves on so many sides. Allow me to limit this arguement according to what I understand. If I'm wrong, Silver, please correct me! Silver and Faust never meant to say that they do not believe there is an reality. They don't think that we exist in a Matrix-like world of perceptions. Certain things can logically and scientifically be proven. Events occur, things that we can see and experience. These make up reality. However, right and wrong are not like things we observe. There is no way we can test or measure them. Religion is not like a simple answer to the moral 'question'. Silver and Faust know that some things make up reality; what they reject is a moral absolute, a standard of good and evil. They are moral relativists, if you want a label for it. (And I can defend them better than they can defend themselves, lol )
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Post by Faust-Dark Lord Reborn on May 23, 2005 17:03:38 GMT -5
Thank you so very much. I felt like (to add some LotR in here) the battle before the black gates of Mordor: Overwhelmed on all sides.
Thanks for helping us out.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 23, 2005 17:42:54 GMT -5
No problem. It always makes for better debate if we all know where each side is coming from. Didn't want you to remain misunderstood! ; )
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Post by Jandalf on Toast on May 23, 2005 20:25:34 GMT -5
Sorry if anyone felt like that. I wasn't trying to say that anyone was wanting to live in a dream world and defending that. Heh. Far from it, really. I respect you guys, Silver and Faust, for standing up for what you believe. There's too little of that in this world as it is.
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Post by SilverSergyon13 on May 23, 2005 21:56:37 GMT -5
Knocked the nail on the head. Thanks JaO.
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 24, 2005 13:11:26 GMT -5
Absolutely! Any time! *blush* However, I'll be switching back to my original position now, folks. I believe that there absolutely is an absolute right and wrong for the following reasons (and some others that may come up later):
1) It is not practically possible to live as if there are no moral absolutes. 2) My own nature as a human being tells me that there is a God who cares how we behave. He will reward those who serve Him, and punish those who do not. 3) My own ability to use logic tells me there must be some standard of truth. 4) I believe that what the Bible says is truth. 5) Even those who claim there are no moral absolutes, that nothing is certain, are not consistent in their position.
If you have any questions, let me know. I hope that this will lead to further discussion...perhaps you will begin see it my way? ; ) You can tell I've thought your position through. Not bashing anyone...*nervous*
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Post by sblomietheinsane on May 24, 2005 13:43:05 GMT -5
Okay, that clears a lot of stuff up. Thanks, JOA. And sorry to Silver and Faust, if you guys were feeling overwhelmed. I know I can be too much, so just let me know and I'll back off. 8->
I wouldn't get too hopeful about them seeing it your way... They know what they think. O.o
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Post by Joan Omnipresent on May 24, 2005 15:04:29 GMT -5
Cha...I know that. 'Twas only a joke...am I not the one who warned against trying to convince everyone? ; ) Still, there is that hope...lol...
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Post by sblomietheinsane on May 24, 2005 15:57:17 GMT -5
There is still hope... 8-P
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Post by Master Warious on May 25, 2005 12:47:07 GMT -5
Just as another point
Truth is as i posted the definition.
Ones' Obi-wan philosophy (point of view) is subject to differences. i.e. One's OPINION is not truth but what they believe.
Opinion is relative. Truth (fact) is absolute.
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Post by Jandalf on Toast on May 25, 2005 18:56:22 GMT -5
Yes! I agree with that exactly, Warious.
Hmm...do I keep calling you Warious, or do you now prefer Elphaba?
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