|
Post by Jandalf on Toast on Jun 13, 2005 10:54:15 GMT -5
Also, I've heard some arguments to support the idea that anyone who lacks the mental capacity to fully accept or come to terms with Jesus is heaven-bound, such as small children or some of the more extreme cases of mental disabilities. And I've got to say it makes sense, too; if a three-year-old dies due to whatever circumstance, I don't think the kid would go to hell simply because they weren't at a level to fully understand what God has done for us and what the path to salvation entails. In that way, I think someone that's so deep into depression (or any other disorder) that they can't make sense of anything anymore wouldn't necessarily go to hell if they committed suicide. It's impossible to say for certain, though, but while I believe that suicide is self-murder, I also believe God is a merciful God and his judgement is perfect. (shrugs) It's a concept, anyway, that I found to be sensible enough.
|
|
Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
|
Post by Kaiya on Jun 13, 2005 11:57:34 GMT -5
When a Christian is suffering enough to commit suicide, they are blind to everything... Especially love. All they can see is the pain and the horrible things in the world. They want their suffering to end badly enough to where they are willing to hurt those that love them. They think that their family and friends are better off without them, even if it might hurt them. And just as they are blind to human love, they are blind to God's love. Perhaps they think that God has abandoned them... Or perhaps they think that they are simply not strong enough to live, despite what God has planned for them. Or perhaps not worthy of doing God's will. They think they are worthless, that they cannot do God's work or make any real difference in the world. Besides that, they believe in heaven, and are willing to take the chance that the world beyond this one is better and that their suffering will finally be relieved. And in the case of depression, they cannot think rationally. I was diagnosed with anxious depression when I was only 13 years old, so I know from personal experience that the pain is constant and completely overwhelming. After spending nights crying out to God for help and receiving nothing but gradually increasing pain, you start to die inside and you feel like you're no good to anyone because you're too trapped in your own grief. Hope fades and eventually nothing matters except for making the pain stop. It will drive you crazy until you can't rationalize to yourself that God loves you and things will get better.
As for whether or not I take the Bible as the word of God, yes but not in the sense that you do. The Bible was written by men... Many men. And men are opinionated and have faults. If you disagree with that, then you yourself are not taking the Bible as the word of God because the Bible reminds us on every other page that we are all sinners and none of us is perfect. So I use my own knowledge and what little wisdom God has given me to interpret the Bible, just as every person does. If you want to take the Bible word for word, then I'm assuming that you don't do any kind of work on the Sabbath, you believe that divorced and remarried couples are all committing adultery and should be stoned to death, and that slavery is perfectly fine. You can find quotes from the Bible to back up almost any theory, including mine. Take a look at Luke 6 : 27-38.
"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who mistreat you. If anyone hits you on one cheek, let him hit the other one too; if someone takes your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to everyone who asks you for something, and when someone takes what is yours, do not ask for it back. Do for others just what you want them to do for you. If you love only the people who love you, why should you receive a blessing? Even sinners love those who love them! And if you do good only to those who do good to you, why should you receive a blessing? Even sinners do that! And if you lend only to those from whom you hope to get it back, why should you receive a blessing? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount! No! Love your enemies and do good to them; lend and expect nothing back. You will then have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High God. For he is good to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful just as your father is merciful. Do not judge others, and God will not judge you; do not condemn others, and God will not condemn you; forgive others and God will forgive you. Give to others, and God will give to you. Indeed, you will receive a full measure, a generous helping, poured into your hands--all that you can hold. The measure you use for others is the one that God will use for you."
So you see, if you want to use that passage word for word, then my point of view is the word of God, just as you proved yours to be the word of God. Nowhere in that passage does it say "but this only applies to Christians who do these deeds" or "this is excluding the good people that do not believe in me" but it instead proclaims that one must live a life of mercy, charity, and compassion to belong to God. So then, which of us is right? We both quoted from the Bible to support our beliefs. No one can say which of us is right except for God, which is why I don't claim to know who is going to hell and who is to be saved. Some Christians live horrible lives and some atheists live lives full of love for others. No one knows which of them will be saved except for God, so no one should try to push their judgments on other people, especially a school. I would like to think that God is forgiving and merciful enough to accept non-believers into his kingdom, but that's my own belief and I'm entitled to it, just as you are entitled to yours. We could argue about it forever, but neither of us would change the other's opinion or accomplish anything at all for that matter.
|
|
|
Post by Trinity on Jun 13, 2005 12:05:17 GMT -5
Suicide is a very touchy and painful subject, especially because the Bible doesn't specifically address it. But in either 1 or 2 Corinthians 6:19 - 20 it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit and not to do any harm to it because you are not your own once you become a Christian, you are God's. I have known people (in fact, one of them is my best friend) who have gone through very hard times in their lives and have wanted to kill themselves. But those thoughts and all that depression doesn't come from God. It comes from Satan. He is the one who wants to tear you apart inside and make you feel like there isn't anything left to live for, even though as Christians we have everything to live for. Believe me, he has made me feel that way on more than one occasion. I have never been suicidal, but I have felt hopeless, worthless, and afraid. Thankfully, in the case of my friend, God heals and comforts and brings hope and love.
I can't say that if you commit suicide you go to hell or not. When I die, I will be asking Jesus about that one! But I can say that if any of you ever feel like that, just know that there is a Savior who loves you more than you can ever imagine and He is right there with His arms open, ready to get you through the hard times. And if you know someone who feels this way, don't be afraid to stand up and tell them about Jesus. Because as Christians, we have hope in God and we need to share that to the hurt people we know. You might save someone by just listening, encouraging and praying for and with them. God used me in my friend's life in that way and I won't say that I'm the reason he is still alive because all that glory belongs to God, but God used me to make a difference and He can use you too.
My deepest sympathies go out to those of you who have known people who have committed suicide.
|
|
|
Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jun 13, 2005 12:59:04 GMT -5
You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion, Kaiya, and we don't have to discuss the issue further it you don't want to. But I don't think you have any right to try to make my beliefs seem ridiculous. I don't take verses out of context, and I use the whole Bible to come to my conclusions. Just for the record, the idea that the Bible is only partly the Word of God--and we can therefore take what we want and leave the rest--is what is going to send many, many unsuspecting people into Hell. So pardon me if I'm a little emphatic.
|
|
Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
|
Post by Kaiya on Jun 13, 2005 13:16:32 GMT -5
Forgive me if the way I worded things seemed harsh to you. It's not my intention to make your views seem ridiculous at all. It's my intention to show that there are many points of view, all of which can be backed up by the Bible, which is why we have different denominations of Christianity in the first place. I don't appreciate it when people flat out tell me that what I believe is wrong and I don't appreciate it when people question my faith in the Bible or assume that my knowledge of its contents is inferior to their own. I've heard the passages just as often as you have, I'm sure, and just because I have a different understanding of them doesn't mean that I'm going to hell. Every single Christian ignores certain parts of the Bible or doesn't take them word for word, especially Leviticus and parts of Numbers. You obviously understand this since you were offended by my comment about the Sabbath, adultery, and slavery. Those rules are laid down in the Bible just as clearly as anything else, and yet no modern day Christian would even think about owning a slave or stoning their remarried parents to death.
|
|
|
Post by Dûncariel is Dead. on Jun 13, 2005 13:40:02 GMT -5
Mm, point on the Old Testament. Yes, man wrote the Bible by God's plan. Everything written in the Bible came from God, though it was written by man's hand. If it were not, why are there no discrepancies? Much of the misunderstanding that comes from the Bible is due to misinterpretation. In the Old Testament, rules such as the ones pertaining to eating pork, and unclean stuff, and mold, were there for the people's safety. In Bible times, pork and much other meat was simply not safe. Therefore -- rules to protect the people.
Many of the rules and regulations in the New Testament -- mostly written by Paul -- were also written pertaining to the times. There is a section where Paul speaks of Women's role in the church. It says that women are supposed to be silent, and are not to teach men. This was written to that specific church because they were having problems with women who were too outspoken, and were becoming a hinderance to the teachings of Christ. Many men now take this passage literally, though it was not meant that way in the way Paul wrote it for that specific church. Thus, when reading God's word, it is important to understand the context in which it was originally written.
|
|
|
Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jun 13, 2005 17:43:45 GMT -5
Heh...sorry, Kaiya. These things are very important to me, so I guess I'm too sensitive. Of course we all interpret the Bible differently, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that. Refusing to accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God isn't an issue of interpretation, though...
|
|
Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
|
Post by Kaiya on Jun 13, 2005 18:13:42 GMT -5
Hey, mate, it's all good. Religion is always a sensitive subject and it's easy to offend someone. So once again, I apologize, as it was not my intention.
I accept the Bible as inspired by God, but written by man. And Duncariel is right, much of the Bible reflects the time it was written and certain passages have multiple purposes. So I don't take anything at face value.
|
|
|
Post by Tiana, eh? on Jun 13, 2005 20:43:58 GMT -5
All right, I'll try to be straight about this. But if you don't believe all the Bible, or change the interpetation, that in itself is a sin. I know it's easy to misinterpet, and I know that saying things were for that time are true. But saying that the over and over again stated is wrong just because of one possibility... seems... well... wrong. It is stated over and over again that there's only one way to be saved.
Ephesians 2 : 8-9 says For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast.
If that does not clearly state my point, then nothing can.
Then there's
Titus 3:5a Not by works of rightousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.
And
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Translated: Just being good isn't going to justify your sins)
Then, the obvious
Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
And
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."
I've covered my bases by merely touching the surface of all the verses that say clearly: Works will not save you. You can't say you believe the Bible if you don't believe all of it. Certainly, some of it was wrote for the time period. And, if I may, your verse stated, I believe, is an example of what we, as Christians, should be-- not how you can be saved. And to take the piece that says "be merciful as he is merciful", realize that in our sins and in our darkness, to save those who trust in him is mercy in itself. To save those who did good works but refuse to believe in him... is... ridiculous, really. God doesn't work for nothing-- though what he did, he did without demanding a ton of works from us--, we're suppose to serve him in graditude.
And I take your passage word for word. Nowhere does it say you WILL be saved, it merely says you are the sons of the most High God. Not that you will be saved. And if I may, no insult, but to take the passage in context with the section around it, he was talking to his disciples, those who were already believers.
I am not trying to change your beliefs, merely state my own.
I salute you, that's exactly what I've been trying to say. The Bible is COMPLETELY God's word, and if you think otherwise, you're going to be in a lot of trouble later on. It was wrote by men under the inspiration of God and empowered by the Holy Spirit. It was written over thousands of years and in 5 different langauges. And everything lines up. You cannot say it was changed by the men who wrote it, because it wasn't them, but the power of the Holy Spirit that took their pens and wrote down what we now read. I know it's been said before, but I will say it again.
And we're not trying to rub your beliefs down, Kaiya, merely state our own. We will question them, because they can be, and because you started it by countering ours. And, as I have said before, if this turns into a flame war, I'll lock the thread.
To ignore or change God's word is a sin. The Old Tesement laws were wrote in context for that time. But the base is still there. We might not stone someone who commited adultery to death, but it is still wrong. Punishments are changed over years. Do we put people on the rack now adays to make them talk? Are women discriminated against by every single man as the weaker person, thus causing them to have to remain quieter to keep from being stoned? There are things that cannot be applied to our lives in an exact sense today, yes. But the things that can be should not be changed when they're stated over and over again. Believing that Christ died for our sins is not something that can be changed because of time.
Absolute truth stays the same throughout the time. Gravity always pulls down, even if they didn't always know about it.
Does that mean that, because "Do not Murder" was written in that time that we should go out and murder someone because it doesn't have to be taken at face value?
I appologize for my harder words. I'm touchy on this issue. We're not trying to tear you down, just debate. Debates are fun... snrk.
And you people don't need permission to start threads on any topic-- just as a sidenote. Go ahead, whoever asked about starting one. As long as it stays in the Christian denomination. Other religions go in the "reality" board. Same with science.
And I do believe in science, just not the ones that contradict my beliefs. I believe in gravity! Mwhaha!
But I must state that you're not a Christian just because you go to church and are a good person. Christianity is a belief in Christ's death and resurection. Otherwise, you're probably just a glorified Scout.
Aha! Here.
Yes, go ahead!
And you can go ahead and start one on suicide too, if you'd like.
And I express my sympathies as well. I know what it's like to lose someone close, it must've hurt.
It says somewhere, I think, that if you die before you can understand that you will go to heaven. At least, that's what I've heard myself. I mean, really. If a child young enough to not understand the word of God dies, they're still innocent.
Well, then they should recheck their beliefs. Somewhere it says... Hebrews, I think, that he will "Never leave you nor forsake you". And
It also says in the Bible that God will never put you through anything beyond what you are able to bear. Somewhere. I forget my references, though... I've memorized a lot. Heh. But I'll leave the topic. I think it's self-murder and that Christian or not, it's not right to kill yourself because you're playing God. But since it's not addressed in the Bible, at least, that I know of, perhaps a Christian who kills themselves will go to heaven.
I make my point, do not test the theory though, all right? *grins*
|
|
Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
|
Post by Kaiya on Jun 13, 2005 22:43:53 GMT -5
First of all, let me say that I'm highly offended by some of the things you said, Tiana. To avoid any arguments, I'll leave it at that and just kindly ask you to please be a little more considerate about my feelings. This is a touchy subject for everyone, including myself.
Second, let me state just for the record, that it was Joan, not I, who started this debate by contesting my beliefs, which is fine with me, because I don't mind a good conversation, but I don't appreciate being accused of things. We've managed to keep this civil so far, despite the intensity of the subject, which I don't want to ruin.
Now, back to the real subject we're supposed to be discussing here. Once again, just as you can give me quotes about redemption by faith alone, I can give you quotes that continue to state that just believing and preaching isn't enough.
Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do. When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lor! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!' Then I will say to them, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!'"
Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will reward each one according to his deeds."
Revelation 20:11-13 "Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sits on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence and were seen no more. And I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing before the throne. Books were opened and then another book was opened, the book of the living. The dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead. Death and the world of the dead also gave up the dead they held. And all were judged according to what they had done."
And as for my earlier passage from Luke, yes, Luke says that Jesus was preaching to the disciples. But almost the exact same passage from Matthew says that Jesus was preaching to a crowd from the top of a hill at the time, not just his disciples. This is one thing, minor as it may be, that does not line up.
Yes, you are right, punishments are constantly changed. Lots of things are constantly changed. What is considered right and wrong by men is constantly changed. People who are sick are no longer considered unclean and cast from their homes and families. Having multiple wives is no longer considered right and acceptable. Having tattoos and cutting your hair are acceptable. I could go on with that stuff forever. All of it is laid out specifically and clearly in Leviticus and all of it is clearly and completely ignored by today's Christians. There are no underlying principles about them that we still carry today.
No. It means that I don't take it at face value, I consider it, try to think of anything that contradicts it, and make my own decisions about how to interpret it and follow it. Like this... If you want to use murder, let's think about exceptions when killing someone is ok. Self-defense is considered ok by Christians. Many Christians are soldiers who kill people every day, sometimes accidentally killing innocents. Yet this is considered ok as well. So is killing someone because of crimes they have committed by using the death penalty. So you see, I can't just take it at face value and say "No one can ever murder anyone in any situation" because there seem to be plenty of examples that are considered righteous by the majority of the Christians in this world, including myself.
As for your comments on the reasons people commit suicide, you cannot ever understand their state of mind until you have been there. Never. Once again, you're asking them to think rationally when they have a problem that prohibits them from doing so. Depression is described by doctors as a spiraling staircase. You keep going down and down and if no one stops you soon enough, you eventually reach a point where you're so far down into the darkness that you can't see the light at the top, even though you used to see nothing but that light. Almost every person that commits suicide has a depression disorder. And believe me when I say that it affects the mind and body in such tormenting ways that you spend every second of every day in pure agony, and there's nothing you can do to make the pain ever completely go away. To live through it is to be scarred for life and to constantly battle your own mind and own way of thinking every single day. It is so incredibly painful and so frustrating... Anyone can lose their way in that situation. Anyone. And anyone who's never been there can never be certain that they wouldn't feel just as hopeless and lost.
|
|
|
Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jun 14, 2005 10:07:24 GMT -5
I am back...for the time being. I'll just kind of sit idle on the sidelines, unless I feel the need to reply to something said. Anyways....
First of all, I applaud you Kaiya. I agree with just about everything you said and it was all said so well.
As for the "being saved" discussion:
I believe that while you may be saved if you believe in Jesus and God, that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to heaven. By saying that the only way you can get into heaven is by believing in God and Jesus and in the Christian religion is like saying that all of the charitable works you spend you life doing don't matter. You could be the nastiest person and never do a good thing, but as long as you have faith in God you are going to heaven. Meanwhile you have the saintly person on the other hand who has done everything right and has always been kind. However, what you are all saying is that God doesn't care about those works. Only about whether or not a person believes in him?
Everyone's always going on about being saved and that Jesus died so we could be saved, but no one ever really says what we will be saved from. Yes, people have ideas about it, but to say we will be saved is too vague. It's too vague for a lot of people.
It's useless to argue many of these points. As we can see, there are passages in the bible that contradict and we can see examples of those right here on the pages of this post. How can anyone say that nothing in the bible contradicts? I suppose this goes back to the discussion of perception. Everyone can argue about things all they want, but the way one sees the world, the bible, religion, is all in one's Point of View. Things are misineterpretted because people are different. It's as simple as that. If God wanted us all to come to the same conclusion about the bible, he wouldn't have created us different.
And on that note, I leave you all with a quote. One that most of you should know.
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
Yes, it's a quote from Star Wars, but I think when you all think about this quote, it can very much be attributed to OUR world. Think about this and think about what everyone is saying. If everyone KNEW what they were talking about, the world would be in a lot of trouble.
|
|
|
Post by Jandalf on Toast on Jun 14, 2005 10:30:08 GMT -5
Hmm. How can I say that I agree with both Tiana and Kaiya at the same time? I'll start off by saying that I believe the only way into heaven is through accepting Jesus and what he did to change most people's former inability to directly access God. But! Let's say you make a new friend, and upon your first meeting you talk for hours and find you really like this new person, that you have a lot in common, and that there's every indication that you'll be friends for life. The next day, this "friend" goes off and starts ridiculing you behind your back, but when you're there, the "friend" is the best friend in the world. Can you truly say they are your friend if they keep hypocritically backstabbing you? In this way, I believe that while works alone cannot save you, your deeds will define what you truly believe, and if you actually are dedicating your life to God, it'll show in your works. Remember, Jesus wasn't going around asking people to send him postcards now and then. He was asking for disciples. He was asking people to follow him.
There are things in the Bible that seem to contradict, yes. But I see the New Testament taking precedence over the Old. The two testaments in contrast are a clear indicator of what Jesus' coming and crucifixion did to change things for us. It shows how the world was brought into a different age of salvation by God's mercy.
The quote on only Sith dealing in absolutes fascinates me. After thinking about it for a while, I decided it's true for emotion, but not salvation.
|
|
|
Post by Trinity on Jun 14, 2005 10:45:32 GMT -5
I know it's hard to wrap your mind around the fact that you can be the nicest person in the world and do many wonderful and kind things but, if you don't know Christ as your Savior, you aren't going to heaven. But it says here that you are not saved by works alone, but by faith through Jesus Christ.
I don't think I could put anything better than what Tiana posted. Good job, girl!
It is a fact that in the many different belief systems existing in our world today that pretty much all of them believe in some form of god. But there is only one TRUE God, and you can live your entire life thinking you know Him, but unless you have that personnal relationship with Him, you will get to heaven and He will not know you because you chose not to know Him. Harsh, I know, but true. That is why God calls Christians to go out and share Him to others, so that they may know him. God doesn't want people to go to hell. In fact, that is why after the rapture happens, He still gives people opportunities to believe up until they take the mark of the beast. But after that, you can't go back.
The gospels where written by four different apostles: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Of course they were different because each man saw things differently than the other. Luke, for instance, was a doctor and you will find things that are of greater detail in his gospel than in the others.
I firmly believe that through God you CAN come back to this light. I've seen it happen to those around me, and I love His saving grace and the fact that, now matter how deep into a hole you are, God can always reach down and pull you back up. He sees EVERYTHING and understands it like no one else can. Right now, I'm having a really hard time dealing with stuff that's going on in my life. No one understands except God, and I thank Him for that everyday. I know that through Him, I can get through the way I'm feeling and everything will be all right and at the end of it all, I will be the young woman that He wants me to be.
All I will say is God saves. Nothing is too big for Him. Not depression, not sadness, loneliness, nothing.
" These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." John 16:33
Jesus said that.
|
|
|
Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jun 14, 2005 11:19:30 GMT -5
That's true.
This is such a difficult issue... As a firm believer in the Biblical teachings of election/predestination, I think it's safer to say that every one of God's elect that dies as an infant will be saved; the rest will not be. No human being is innocent.
The Bible says "do not murder", NOT "do not kill". (Right, I know what the KJV says...but that's not the best translation, so just take it...) War, self-defense, and punishment for crimes are not murder. No one would define them so. Your arguement has no impact, Kaiya.
As far as I know, nobody here is saying that! *grrr* "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"...not believe in...not believe facts about...believe ON! Put faith in! Give yourself over! Of course we don't think that all you have to do to be saved is to know the facts...that's ridiculous. Faith is the issue. But what do the Scriptures say? How shall they hear without a preacher? We have to know who Jesus is and what he has done for us before we can believe on--accept and put faith in--Him. Oh, wait a minute, though...that text may be outdated and worthless...? How wonderfully convenient to be able to decide what truths are still applicable to us, eh?
|
|
Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
|
Post by Kaiya on Jun 14, 2005 11:28:07 GMT -5
I agree with Silver on just about every point there. And I love that quote, because I try to tell people that basic message all the time when they try to tell me that things are all black and white and there are no shades of gray.
I agree. The New Testament does take precedence over the Old Testament, otherwise we'd all be arguing that only the people of Israel are God's people. Jesus told us clearly and directly that some of the laws given to us in the Old Testament are no longer applicable. But my poin is that people still continue to use quotes from the older laws to justify their prejudices, plus there's the fact that it's not the only section of the Bible that seems to contradict anything. I find that plenty of things in the New Testament contradict themselves at first glance, which is why I never take anything at face value and examine them more closely to try and interpret their meanings.
That's my point exactly. The point of view of a man changes the way he relates things to others, even if he is inspired by God. Different men are going to write things down in different ways and tell us different things.
No, nothing is to big for God. But many things are too big for people. I wish you would stop comparing a depression disorder to normal complications of the human life. Let me tell you that they are nothing alike at all. Complications are difficult, yes. Normal pain and suffering is difficult, yes. But you still retain your rational thinking and your personality through all of it. Clinical depression destroys who you are. When I was 14, I was a cutter, I cried myself to sleep every single night even if nothing bad had happened that day, I pushed away my family and friends, I lost interest in everything I loved to do, and I simply wanted to die. And yet I have always had the perfect life, so there was no reason for me to feel that way. It's like being a shell of the person you once were... The pain and the darkness consumes you. Even if God does reach out to you over and over again, you can't see it. You can't feel him anymore because you're so empty of all good feelings. You can cry and scream and beg God every night to help you, but your mind won't let him help you. Trust me, I tried, and I'm sure that Philip, being a preacher's son, tried many times as well before he took a gun to his head. People have to be willing to receive God's help, as proven time and time again. People with serious depression don't have the power to accept God because their minds won't let them find anything good. Imagine going through life not being able to feel real happiness even though it's all around you, but every time something bad happens, even something minor, it hits you like a brick wall. That's what serious depression is. And to just see these words isn't going to express to you what it's like. No one can explain it to another person. It's something you have to experience to understand. So when you experience it, then you can judge these people if you really feel the need to. And that's if it doesn't kill you first.
|
|
|
Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jun 14, 2005 11:28:29 GMT -5
Nononononono...see above! Not believes IN...faith is the important thing. But wait a sec...are you saying that if God wants to save the most wicked people--while what we think of as "good" people are sent to Hell--that's a BAD thing? First of all, since you don't believe in absolute truth, all you can tell God is that you wish He would do things differently. Beyond that, however, is the glorious truth that God often does save the worst of us. When He does, we try to serve Him; He helps us to grow; we're better in the end than in the beginning. But we may never do as many good deeds as an unsaved person, for all that we've so much improved. Humbling, isn't it? And amazing...God is truly amazing, because what matters to Him is a heart that accepts His place as Lord of our lives. Good deeds just don't measure up. Wonderful...we can tell ourselves over and over that it's what is on the inside that counts, and still we can't get past our prejudices and our pride that wants to be seen as our definition of "good". Only God truly deals with the heart, and knows that it is all that matters!
|
|
|
Post by Joan Omnipresent on Jun 14, 2005 11:32:12 GMT -5
Don't worry...I'll never try to tell you that! But let's face it: in order to have shades of grey, there has to be a black and a white! We're debating on what the black, white, and grey issues are, but we're not questioning their existence.
|
|
|
Post by Trinity on Jun 14, 2005 14:50:03 GMT -5
My heart goes out to you. I know people who are cutters and I've seen the effects of cutting. In fact, it's one of my favorite things to talk to my Jr. highers about so they know that it isn't the way to deal with your hurt. Those feelings don't come from God, they come from Satan. That knowledge was the only thing that at one time kept me from cutting myself, and I thank God for He is the One who pulled me together at the exact moment I wanted to hurt myself most and kept me from harm.
And you are right, I haven't been through as much as many have, but my faith and hope is in God completely. I know that He will never give me more than I can handle and when life seems bad and I just want to scream, cry and lock myself in my room, I know God will be right there to pick me up and carry me for a while.
And if things get any more intense in here, the thread will be shut down. I know ya'll want to debate, but we need do draw the line and keep from hurting each other's feelings. And if I say anything to offend, forgive me. In all honesty, my main point is to encourage and spread God's love and maybe correct some misgivings about Him, not to bash anyone else. We all have our painful pasts and need to be sensitive to that, so be kind to one another as Christ commands us to.
|
|
|
Post by SilverSergyon13 on Jun 14, 2005 16:57:37 GMT -5
"War, self-defense, and punishment for crimes are not murder."
Again, we have to look at view points. To the one defending themself, killing another was not murder, it was self defense. However, if the other person was just trying to defend themselves as well, who was doing the murdering? To the family of the one killed, it was the other person who had murdered.
If I remember correctly, someone had said murder is defined by the senseless killing of a human being. I believe murder is the senseless killing of ANY being. All murder is senseless. War is senseless, crime is senseless, death as a punishment is senseless. To me, it is all senseless. The only reason for these things are to see that the someone is hurt. Blame needs to be put somewhere, and so we kill in order to send away bad memories, to avoid coming to agreements, etc., etc...
Then again, I believe game hunting is also murder. Senseless killing.
And murdering isn't just to physically kill one's body. A person can be murdered in spirit. Still alive, yet dead in spirit and in soul. I don't mean to bring animals into this discussion, but many people senselessly kill them too, yet they don't think this is wrong because "animals don't compare to humans". Wrongwrongwrongwrongwrong WRONG. People kill ALL the time. People MURDER all the time.
I don't really know where I am going with this, but I get very upset when people think that murder is only the senseless killing of humans.
"Those feelings don't come from God, they come from Satan."
Ok, I am going to explain depression in a scientific sense. Depression is a disorder, as was stated before. In a state of depression, the mind does not work correctly. The gears do not fit properly in a sense. Common sense is skewed, and in some of the worst cases, common sense doesn't exist. You can't just go up to a person suffering from depression and expect them to come around. You can't preach to them about God's love. Their mind won't comprehend. In fact, their minds won't let them listen.
It's no where near just having a bad day, week, month, year. No, depression feels like eternity. Darkness all around, no hope of ever seeing light again. When a person is left with no hope, they feel they have nothing. They are not thinking strait and the only escape seems to be death. When there is only one escape, or at least when one thinks there is no escape, one would tend to lean towards that escape. To be void of all hope must be one of the worst feelings I never wish to experience. Many can't even imagine the concept, except for those who have been through it.
And as said before, no one can speak about the nature of depression until they have been through it themselves. Sure, scientifically it can be explained. I can give my thoeries on it all day long, but I won't know until I've been there, and neither can anyone else.
It is most often easier said than done. We can talk about depression, sure, but until you've walked the path, you can never know depression.
|
|
Kaiya
Agent of Gondor
"No one is beneath redemption..."
Posts: 185
|
Post by Kaiya on Jun 14, 2005 17:03:27 GMT -5
............. You're my new best friend. *cling* ;D
|
|